T.T. gives the media no ammo

[pbmax]

If that's your standard to be one of the best, then who are the best? Teams who have won a Super Bowl and consistently won from season to season?

I listed several teams earlier in this thread. The only ones that seem to fit your criteria are New England and Indy. So by "best" or "one of the best" do you mean, then, top two? Top three?

Can any of you read? Seriously. Where the hell did I say Thompson had to WIN a Super Bowl?

IMO, Thompson has yet to build a roster even CAPABLE of winning a title. How anyone can put him in the TOP 5 of NFL GM's is beyond me. Great teams typically have great line play...yet Thompson seems clueless in terms of how to improve our OL. He has to keep hanging on to Clifton and Tauscher because he is unable to assemble any talent himself. We have no depth in the defensive secondary, which is unacceptable if you want to win a title against QBs like Warner, Manning, Brees, Favre, etc. Does a top 5 GM keep BUSH around for as long as Thompson has? I'm not a top 5 GM, and even I know that you can find someone on one of the other 31 practice squads better than Bush. Thompson's handling of the punter situation is another major black mark. He has an annoying habit of creating holes on the roster without someone to fill it.

Thompson still has a ways to go to prove himself in my book. He's not a bad GM. But top 5? You are nuts.

winner winner chicken dinner IMO

This team, in what for many was their first playoff game, needed one more play to go their way to beat the Cardinals. That was after the worst possible start the team could have had. On the road with a terrible start and backups for cornerbacks 2-4 and they should have won. That is an impressive effort, though it wasn't enough. That ultimate failure, however, was not the GM in this case.

If you don't think this team was capable of getting to the Super Bowl over the Saints, then I don't think you appreciate the talent on hand.

The QB had Pro Bowl numbers and should have gotten MVP and All Pro votes while playing behind a line that was pass blocking horribly. The last guy to do that? Randall Cunningham. You might also put Favre on the list if you think he made the 2007 pass blocking look better than it was, though Clifton and Tausch were much healthier and younger.

This team wasn't the waste of an opportunity that the Packers team that lost in Philly was. They still had to beat the Vikes. But they could have done it.

[Fritz]

If that's your standard to be one of the best, then who are the best? Teams who have won a Super Bowl and consistently won from season to season?

I listed several teams earlier in this thread. The only ones that seem to fit your criteria are New England and Indy. So by "best" or "one of the best" do you mean, then, top two? Top three?

Can any of you read? Seriously. Where the hell did I say Thompson had to WIN a Super Bowl?

IMO, Thompson has yet to build a roster even CAPABLE of winning a title. How anyone can put him in the TOP 5 of NFL GM's is beyond me. Great teams typically have great line play...yet Thompson seems clueless in terms of how to improve our OL. He has to keep hanging on to Clifton and Tauscher because he is unable to assemble any talent himself. We have no depth in the defensive secondary, which is unacceptable if you want to win a title against QBs like Warner, Manning, Brees, Favre, etc. Does a top 5 GM keep BUSH around for as long as Thompson has? I'm not a top 5 GM, and even I know that you can find someone on one of the other 31 practice squads better than Bush. Thompson's handling of the punter situation is another major black mark. He has an annoying habit of creating holes on the roster without someone to fill it.

Thompson still has a ways to go to prove himself in my book. He's not a bad GM. But top 5? You are nuts.

winner winner chicken dinner IMO

Yes Leaper I can read. That's why I wrote "one of the best."

Couple of points: I did not say you said "had" to win; I asked you what your parameters were for including someone as a top GM.

Since you mention above "great line play," I'm thinking you would exclude the GM's of Pittsburgh and Arizona since Pittsburgh won a Super Bowl in spite of a very mediocre offensive line and Arizona got knocked out this year featuring a defensive line that gave up over, what, 80 points in two games?

Could you tell me please which practice squad defensive backs are so much better than Bush? No, I don't like Bush all that well, but he wasn't supposed to be the nickel back going into the season. That was Tramon Williams, who I think is a far better nickel back than the vast majority of nickel backs out there. Blackmon and Lee were the depth, but both got hurt. It's not like Thompson/McCarthy had Bush starting over Al Harris or playing in front of Tramon Williams. He was all that was left.

We disagree, obviously. I think Thompson is an excellent GM; you don't.

[The Shadow]

TT remains one of the best executives in pro football.

I agree. His peers seem to also concur; he has the hardware,

[Joemailman]

Thompson's handling of the punter situation is another major black mark. He has an annoying habit of creating holes on the roster without someone to fill it.

This is his greatest problem IMO. This year he released both Anthony Smith and Aaron Rouse when all he had on the bench were Derrick Martin and Jarrett Bush. Smith and Rouse may have had their weak points, but either one would have been preferable to Martin once Bigby got hurt. If he brings back Tauscher and Clifton, rather than just hoping the kids are ready to fill in, perhaps that will be a sign he has learned something in this area.

[Patler]

What is the fascination with Smith? He couldn't even hold onto a job in St. Louis.

[Fritz]

Smith and Rouse had weak points? Smith couldn't keep a job very long with any other NFL teams after the Packers released him. You sure he was better than Bush? Rouse continued to make the same mistakes with the Giants as he did with the Packers; beyond that, he's a safety not a corner like Bush was playing.

As the Leaper's point about great GM's = great lines, then this Doug Farrar quote concerning Bryant Mckinnie's being kicked off the NFC pro bowl team should be of interest: "The Vikings got to the NFC Championship despite their line, and everybody knows it."

This suggests Minny's GM is not one of the best, either.

[Joemailman]

It's not a fascination. Just a feeling that having a veteran to fill in is sometimes better than plugging in a guy who has barely played the position.

[Joemailman]

Smith and Rouse had weak points? Smith couldn't keep a job very long with any other NFL teams after the Packers released him. You sure he was better than Bush? Rouse continued to make the same mistakes with the Giants as he did with the Packers; beyond that, he's a safety not a corner like Bush was playing.

At that point of the season, our backup safeties were Martin and Bush. Even now, Bush is listed on the Packers roster as CB/S. Given Bigby's injuries in 2008, I don't think our backup safeties should have been 2 guys who had not started a game at that position. Others may be fine with that arrangement.

[Patler]

I'm not sure Wolf had anything more than an adequate O-line until the last one when he retired. Even the '96 team had two new starters from '95, gave up 40 sacks in the regular season and averaged 4.0 yards/carry rushing. His lines were anything but stable, with one or two new starters each and every year. Wolf gave the line a lot of lip service, drafted a lot of really good linemen, but didn't seem to have a lot of interest in keeping guards in particular. I never thought his lines were much more than "OK".

I have often wondered if Wolf would have worked as hard and spent as much money as Sherman did to keep Clifton, Wahle, Winters/Flanagan, Rivera and Tauscher together. He had no qualms about letting Taylor, Timmerman and Verba leave in a 4 year stretch. I suspect there would have been some changes along the way.

[Patler]

Smith and Rouse had weak points? Smith couldn't keep a job very long with any other NFL teams after the Packers released him. You sure he was better than Bush? Rouse continued to make the same mistakes with the Giants as he did with the Packers; beyond that, he's a safety not a corner like Bush was playing.

At that point of the season, our backup safeties were Martin and Bush. Even now, Bush is listed on the Packers roster as CB/S. Given Bigby's injuries in 2008, I don't think our backup safeties should have been 2 guys who had not started a game at that position. Others may be fine with that arrangement.

Smith was a restricted free agent, but the Steelers didn't even make him a qualifying offer. He was a 3rd round draft pick, so was given a lot of opportunities, yet in the end the Steelers had no interest in him at all. I'm not sure he was any better than players who never started before.

Rouse I'm not certain of, only because the Giants did stick with him through out the season.

[Bretsky]

What is the fascination with Smith? He couldn't even hold onto a job in St. Louis.

Well, TTT did put in a waiver claim for him as well

[Bretsky]

Smith and Rouse had weak points? Smith couldn't keep a job very long with any other NFL teams after the Packers released him. You sure he was better than Bush? Rouse continued to make the same mistakes with the Giants as he did with the Packers; beyond that, he's a safety not a corner like Bush was playing.

As the Leaper's point about great GM's = great lines, then this Doug Farrar quote concerning Bryant Mckinnie's being kicked off the NFC pro bowl team should be of interest: "The Vikings got to the NFC Championship despite their line, and everybody knows it."

This suggests Minny's GM is not one of the best, either.

I've never heard of Doug Farrar.......but how would you compare the line of MN to Green Bay position to position ? Come on.......they are not close

[Bretsky]

If that's your standard to be one of the best, then who are the best? Teams who have won a Super Bowl and consistently won from season to season?

I listed several teams earlier in this thread. The only ones that seem to fit your criteria are New England and Indy. So by "best" or "one of the best" do you mean, then, top two? Top three?

Can any of you read? Seriously. Where the hell did I say Thompson had to WIN a Super Bowl?

IMO, Thompson has yet to build a roster even CAPABLE of winning a title. How anyone can put him in the TOP 5 of NFL GM's is beyond me. Great teams typically have great line play...yet Thompson seems clueless in terms of how to improve our OL. He has to keep hanging on to Clifton and Tauscher because he is unable to assemble any talent himself. We have no depth in the defensive secondary, which is unacceptable if you want to win a title against QBs like Warner, Manning, Brees, Favre, etc. Does a top 5 GM keep BUSH around for as long as Thompson has? I'm not a top 5 GM, and even I know that you can find someone on one of the other 31 practice squads better than Bush. Thompson's handling of the punter situation is another major black mark. He has an annoying habit of creating holes on the roster without someone to fill it.

Thompson still has a ways to go to prove himself in my book. He's not a bad GM. But top 5? You are nuts.

winner winner chicken dinner IMO

Yes Leaper I can read. That's why I wrote "one of the best."

Couple of points: I did not say you said "had" to win; I asked you what your parameters were for including someone as a top GM.

Since you mention above "great line play," I'm thinking you would exclude the GM's of Pittsburgh and Arizona since Pittsburgh won a Super Bowl in spite of a very mediocre offensive line and Arizona got knocked out this year featuring a defensive line that gave up over, what, 80 points in two games?

Could you tell me please which practice squad defensive backs are so much better than Bush? No, I don't like Bush all that well, but he wasn't supposed to be the nickel back going into the season. That was Tramon Williams, who I think is a far better nickel back than the vast majority of nickel backs out there. Blackmon and Lee were the depth, but both got hurt. It's not like Thompson/McCarthy had Bush starting over Al Harris or playing in front of Tramon Williams. He was all that was left.

We disagree, obviously. I think Thompson is an excellent GM; you don't.

Leaper can correct me if I'm wrong..........but............I don't think any of us are that far away.

I consider TTT a very good GM; top ten for sure. Not elite yet. Many consider him there already

[Bretsky]

Smith and Rouse had weak points? Smith couldn't keep a job very long with any other NFL teams after the Packers released him. You sure he was better than Bush? Rouse continued to make the same mistakes with the Giants as he did with the Packers; beyond that, he's a safety not a corner like Bush was playing.

As the Leaper's point about great GM's = great lines, then this Doug Farrar quote concerning Bryant Mckinnie's being kicked off the NFC pro bowl team should be of interest: "The Vikings got to the NFC Championship despite their line, and everybody knows it."

This suggests Minny's GM is not one of the best, either.

I'd take Smith over Bush any day of the week....unless you value the Special Team contributions of Bush that much. Maybe we kept him for the specials ? Cover guy.....Smith hands down.

Performance wise, in the preseason Smith looked every bit as good as Bigby and it was well documented how well he knew the defense. Players felt like he did well also........see comments from Woodsen...which were very uncharacteristic of him.

[pbmax]

Smith and Rouse had weak points? Smith couldn't keep a job very long with any other NFL teams after the Packers released him. You sure he was better than Bush? Rouse continued to make the same mistakes with the Giants as he did with the Packers; beyond that, he's a safety not a corner like Bush was playing.

As the Leaper's point about great GM's = great lines, then this Doug Farrar quote concerning Bryant Mckinnie's being kicked off the NFC pro bowl team should be of interest: "The Vikings got to the NFC Championship despite their line, and everybody knows it."

This suggests Minny's GM is not one of the best, either.

I've never heard of Doug Farrar.......but how would you compare the line of MN to Green Bay position to position ? Come on.......they are not close

No one, in the history of football has ever played position by position.

Packer's Adjusted Line Yards (Rushing) (footballoutsiders.com): 8th ranked at 4.29 yards

Vikings Adjusted Line Yards (Rushing): 20th, at 4.01 yards

And that is with Adrian Peterson/Chester Taylor versus Ryan Grant/Brandon Jackson. Tell me you thought the Packers were a better running team. Pass blocking its the reverse: Min 14th (average) and Green Bay 30th (horrible overall but far better in the 2nd half)

Here are some more things most people don't pay attention to when discussion the Packers O line:

Success in Power Rushing (short yardage and goal to go): 73% success 3rd ranked
Stuffed (tackled at or short of LOS): 16% of attempts, ranked 4th