Official Super Bowl Big Game Super Sunday Thread

[Harlan Huckleby]

Just in comparison to Brees. I don't think Manning sucks... unless you want to compare him to Brees. Then I say Brees is better and much more deserving.

I might have voted for Brees over Manning.

I think Brees, Manning and Favre were co-MVPs.

[Joemailman]

I felt it was Manning this year. Lost his #2 WR early, had no running game to keep defenses honest, and until the Super Bowl, didn't lose a game in which he was allowed to finish. Wasn't his best year statistically, but in other ways it probably was his best year.

[Bossman641]

I felt it was Manning this year. Lost his #2 WR early, had no running game to keep defenses honest, and until the Super Bowl, didn't lose a game in which he was allowed to finish. Wasn't his best year statistically, but in other ways it probably was his best year.

I agree. Tough to go against a guy who led his team to a 15-0 start while breaking in 2 unknown WR's and not having much of a running game to fall back on.

[Smidgeon]

I felt it was Manning this year. Lost his #2 WR early, had no running game to keep defenses honest, and until the Super Bowl, didn't lose a game in which he was allowed to finish. Wasn't his best year statistically, but in other ways it probably was his best year.

I agree. Tough to go against a guy who led his team to a 15-0 start while breaking in 2 unknown WR's and not having much of a running game to fall back on.

Umm... They finished the season 14-2.

[Joemailman]

I felt it was Manning this year. Lost his #2 WR early, had no running game to keep defenses honest, and until the Super Bowl, didn't lose a game in which he was allowed to finish. Wasn't his best year statistically, but in other ways it probably was his best year.

I agree. Tough to go against a guy who led his team to a 15-0 start while breaking in 2 unknown WR's and not having much of a running game to fall back on.

Umm... They finished the season 14-2.

Note the bold.

[Smidgeon]

I felt it was Manning this year. Lost his #2 WR early, had no running game to keep defenses honest, and until the Super Bowl, didn't lose a game in which he was allowed to finish. Wasn't his best year statistically, but in other ways it probably was his best year.

I agree. Tough to go against a guy who led his team to a 15-0 start while breaking in 2 unknown WR's and not having much of a running game to fall back on.

Umm... They finished the season 14-2.

Note the bold.

Note the bold.

[Patler]

I find it odd that you recognize that the MVP award is for the regular season, and then explain that Manning is great in the regular season and lousy in post season.

Is he really lousy in the post season? He was 2-1 this year, and came within a hair of winning the super bowl. You think because Porter made a great jump on the ball and intercepts a pass that Manning is a "poser" this playoff season?

Manning's playoff performances have been quite spotty. He has made the playoffs 10 times. In six of the 10 years he has gone 0-1, when the Colts regular season records were: 13-3; 10-6; 10-6; 14-2; 13-3 and 12-4. In '04 after a 12-4 season they were 1-1 in the playoffs. In seven seasons, after winning 84 games, the Colts were 1-7 in the playoffs. After wining the Super Bowl, the Colts had back to back "one and done" playoffs after winning 13 and 12 games.

The Colts have entered playoffs 10 times, frequently as one of the more favored teams. They have been a big disappointment more often that not, and, more often than not, Manning has not played up to expectations.

[Harlan Huckleby]

I don't agree that Manning has played poorly in the playoffs, that is just a matter of opinion.

Won-loss records can suggest that the QB choked, but not prove it.

I don't think anybody would be making the argument today that Manning is a playoff failure if he won the game Sunday. Kind of a cheap shot. That game turned on a few plays - the onsides kick, a particularly costly drop by an Indy reciever, and of course the pick.

[Freak Out]

Think Sean Payton should buy MM dinner for giving him the nads to try it?

Payton should thank TT for not offering him the Packers job.

Why?

Because he just won the SB.

[pbmax]

I find it odd that you recognize that the MVP award is for the regular season, and then explain that Manning is great in the regular season and lousy in post season.

Is he really lousy in the post season? He was 2-1 this year, and came within a hair of winning the super bowl. You think because Porter made a great jump on the ball and intercepts a pass that Manning is a "poser" this playoff season?

Manning's playoff performances have been quite spotty. He has made the playoffs 10 times. In six of the 10 years he has gone 0-1, when the Colts regular season records were: 13-3; 10-6; 10-6; 14-2; 13-3 and 12-4. In '04 after a 12-4 season they were 1-1 in the playoffs. In seven seasons, after winning 84 games, the Colts were 1-7 in the playoffs. After wining the Super Bowl, the Colts had back to back "one and done" playoffs after winning 13 and 12 games.

The Colts have entered playoffs 10 times, frequently as one of the more favored teams. They have been a big disappointment more often that not, and, more often than not, Manning has not played up to expectations.

Like any other playoff only discussion, the wins and losses are distorted compared to regular season numbers by the one and done format of single elimination. There are several very good QBs and coaches who are surprisingly near 500, including Manning at 9-9 overall.

Manning has done more at this point of his career than Elway had at a similar point. The only reason Elway's resume is not questionable is because of what Shanahan/Gibbs/Davis were able to do with the running game while cheating the salary cap. And Manning can equal that (not the cheating) with one additional win.

For comparison sake, consider Favre's post-season struggles in the second half (or Post Super Bowl if you prefer) of his career. His W-L was poor. But no one thought another deep playoff run was out of his grasp early this decade. It took a combination of work avoidance and age to render him seriously questionable. Manning is younger and is still putting in the work.

[RashanGary]

I see what pb and huck are saying here. . .

I'm beginning to believe wins (post season and regular season) have a lot more to do with "team other than QB" than they do with "QB". The margin? I don't know something like 90% everyone else, 10% QB but that is up for debate.

Regardless, anytime the discussion for best ever comes up and people start listing stats and wins, I've never heard a logic sound enough for me to buy into any arguement for any player.

1st, I don't know what is expected of each QB, who's fault breakdowns are and how good of a team each QB played on in relation to the other QB's being compared. The knowledge we don't have when making this comparison is shockingly limited. Stats and wins are a function of many things so even those are incredibly weak, almost useless.


And what is greatest? The greatest for one team might not be as good in another because of what is asked. Is greatest the style you like most? No? It's the style that wins? Yeah, well what about defense, ST's and the other 10 players on offense, you think they had a part in that. What about coaching? What about the luck factor?



Playoff winner, playoff loser, SB winner, SB loser, why it all happens, way too gray for me. When someone, anyone, comes up with a system that looks even remotely reliable to me, I'll be excited to discuss it.

Right now, the shots at Farce, the shots at Rodgers and the shots at Manning, none were any different than the shots at Brees until he won this one. All these QB's IMO are good enough to win a SB. Most of the three have been on teams capable of doing it. 3 of the 4 have SB rings. One doesn't. At the end, the player between Manning, Rodgers and Favre who ends up with the most rings will be completely unpredictable. Nothing that has happened in the past has anything to do with the teams each player will play on in the future and IMO that is the resounding greatest variable in why QB's win SB's. The player among them that is the greatest? I think it's Manning/Brees, but that is just my opinion of watching them and it's incredibly limited.

Now, greatest golfer, greatest tennis player. That is a conversation that is a little less grey.

[Smidgeon]

Think Sean Payton should buy MM dinner for giving him the nads to try it?

Payton should thank TT for not offering him the Packers job.

Why?

Because he just won the SB.

Very valid point.

But I guess my question was based on the assumption that Payton wouldn't have had the same success in GB. That hire was for the 2006 year. The last three years would have looked different in GB with Payton (I'm not saying better or worse--just different). That means it's really hard to determine whether or not Payton's gratefulness is based on what happened in this time stream. Until quantum physics finds the alternative realities, we can't know what would have happened. Maybe he wins in GB in 2007 and 2009. Maybe he has under .500 all four years instead of just two. Maybe. That's why I was questioning the question.

[Smidgeon]

Eh. Nevermind. That's thinking far too much about the issue.

[Patler]

Like any other playoff only discussion, the wins and losses are distorted compared to regular season numbers by the one and done format of single elimination. There are several very good QBs and coaches who are surprisingly near 500, including Manning at 9-9 overall.

Manning has done more at this point of his career than Elway had at a similar point. The only reason Elway's resume is not questionable is because of what Shanahan/Gibbs/Davis were able to do with the running game while cheating the salary cap. And Manning can equal that (not the cheating) with one additional win.

For comparison sake, consider Favre's post-season struggles in the second half (or Post Super Bowl if you prefer) of his career. His W-L was poor. But no one thought another deep playoff run was out of his grasp early this decade. It took a combination of work avoidance and age to render him seriously questionable. Manning is younger and is still putting in the work.

My point isn't the win loss record as much as complete failure in 6 of 10 appearances, and only a single win in the 7th. In spite of being one of the better teams, with decent in season records, the Colts have been playoff disappointments year after year. The Colts have lost a lot of playoff games they were expected to win, and Manning has not been the same QB in the playoffs that he has been in the regular season.

When I think of clutch playoff performers, Manning will not jump to my mind quickly.

Not so sure there is a lot of difference between Manning and Elway after 12 seasons. Manning is certainly up in passing stats, but Elway brought the dimension of running, with nearly 3,000 yards at that stage of his career. Manning has been to two Super Bowls, with one win. Elway had been to three at that stage of his career, without a win.

I look at Manning and Favre as QBs who should have made more of their playoff chances than they did, not because they lost Super Bowls, but because of the many playoff years that ended much too early.

[Joemailman]

I felt it was Manning this year. Lost his #2 WR early, had no running game to keep defenses honest, and until the Super Bowl, didn't lose a game in which he was allowed to finish. Wasn't his best year statistically, but in other ways it probably was his best year.

I agree. Tough to go against a guy who led his team to a 15-0 start while breaking in 2 unknown WR's and not having much of a running game to fall back on.

Umm... They finished the season 14-2.

Note the bold.

Note the bold.

Well, he was ahead in game 15 when he got pulled.