Eric Decker???

[Tarlam!]

Martin was Rodgers' guy. It's irrelevant as to why. Providing your franchise QB with maximum comfort level wouldn't seem to be a non issue. Swain beat him out, and you claim it was due to ST's mission.

I tend to believe Swain has more upside. His size doesn't grab me for ST play and I haven't read anything to suggest he's a demon on ST. His bio is extremely thin: http://www.packers.com/team/players/swain_brett/ with no mention of his ST duties.

Yet he beat out Martin. He must have something going for him, because Ruvell wasn't too bad. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ruvell_Martin

Doesn't really matter. TT will doubtlessly bring in some camp bodies at the position and Swain, Jordy and JJ all need to beat the newbs for a spot on the team.

[mission]

Martin was Rodgers' guy. It's irrelevant as to why. Providing your franchise QB with maximum comfort level wouldn't seem to be a non issue. Swain beat him out, and you claim it was due to ST's mission.

I tend to believe Swain has more upside. His size doesn't grab me for ST play and I haven't read anything to suggest he's a demon on ST. His bio is extremely thin: http://www.packers.com/team/players/swain_brett/ with no mention of his ST duties.

Yet he beat out Martin. He must have something going for him, because Ruvell wasn't too bad. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ruvell_Martin

Doesn't really matter. TT will doubtlessly bring in some camp bodies at the position and Swain, Jordy and JJ all need to beat the newbs for a spot on the team.

It's not irrelevant why. You brought up that Martin was AR's guy as if to support the notion that Martin was decent talent hand-picked by AR and that since Swain beat him out, he's therefor better than even the guy AR picked. I was dispelling that with an explanation of why that should not serve as a barometer for Martin's talent. The guy couldn't even stick with the team with the worst record in the league. Come on!

As for Swain, I never said he was a demon on ST, I said they kept him for ST purposes. He was on multiple special teams units.

So there's nothing to write home about his ST play yet that was the tiebreaker between him and Ruvell.

Brett Swain in 2009: 0 catches, 0 yards, 0 TDs
Ruvell Martin in 2008: 15 catches, 149 yards, 1 TD

How anyone in their right might could find a way to defend a guy with no production (literally) is beyond my way of thinking.

Maybe he's a nice guy, maybe he works really hard. I don't know. But our #5 WR position production dropped off a ton last year. The addition of Finley or not, 0 catches is 0 catches. Even i didn't think it was that bad.

Let's get real: we're trying to get better here, not rationalize the existence of some feel-good stories on the bottom of the roster.

[Tarlam!]

I am being real. Your claim that Swain is a JAG isn't supported by the evidence available. You're probably right, though. It's just that TT kept him on, didn't he?

I don't know why your seemingly getting heated over this. Swain doesn't need defending. He made the roster. I'm not defending Swain, just pointing out that he beat out Martin.

You stated:

Swain times fast and was much more helpful on special teams, which was an admitted factor in roster selection last year.

There is little evidence to support this. On the other hand, Martin was the 3rd string QB in lieau of not having 3 full time QBs on the roster.

[sharpe1027]

"Other than noting that the decision to go with Brett Swain over Ruvell Martin at the fifth receiver spot came down to special-teams contributions and was one of the most painful moments of the weekend "

http://www.packers.com/news/stories/2009/09/06/1/

Swain 40 time: 4.41

I couldn't find Ruvell's exact time but I'm pretty sure he was a 4.6 guy. The knock on him was always his speed.

Swain (barely) made the roster because of his special teams play. Until proven otherwise he's JAG.

[sharpe1027]

Re: Eric Decker???

Decker was drafted by the Milwaukee Brewers in the 2008 Major League Baseball Draft, becoming just the third Gopher to play football and be drafted in baseball since 1966. As a junior, he hit four home runs with 25 runs batted in, finishing with a .319 batting average and a .381 on-base percentage, as he was again drafted, this time by Minnesota in the 2009 selection process.

Only if he agrees to play for both the Brewers and the Packers, and if he learns how to pitch.

[mission]

Thank you for the research, Sharpe...

And there's nothing any more factual than him having 0 catches... not sure how that's not supporting my JAG claim.

I really wasn't even expecting a response TBH.

[Lurker64]

I really don't want to spend a high pick (before the 5th round) on a WR or a TE. We're pretty set at those positions. Sure, Swain may be nothing special... but he's the fifth string WR and probably like the 7th or 8th priority target in the passing game (he may or may not be ahead of Havner). Anybody we draft is going to have trouble breaking into the top 3 receiving targets, and the 4th spot is already crowded enough.

[mission]

I really don't want to spend a high pick (before the 5th round) on a WR or a TE. We're pretty set at those positions. Sure, Swain may be nothing special... but he's the fifth string WR and probably like the 7th or 8th priority target in the passing game (he may or may not be ahead of Havner). Anybody we draft is going to have trouble breaking into the top 3 receiving targets, and the 4th spot is already crowded enough.

Havner is definitely ahead of Swain. He caught some passes this year, there's no question.

Swain didn't even see the field (offensively) did he?

And I agree about where to grab a WR... I'm not saying this is a huge priority, but I'd like to see a slash type of player take this last roster spot.

[Tarlam!]

Swain (barely) made the roster because of his special teams play. Until proven otherwise he's JAG.

I don't know how you can confidntly make a claim that he "barely" made the roster, unless you know someone down at 1265 personally. If you don't your speculataing.

I couldn't find any ST reference on Swain, maybe you can help me there.

So far nobody has provided evidence he's JAG. On the contrary, he garnered a valuable roster spot. The Pack lost Meredith and Brohm, because Swain was on the roster.

Now, maybe both those guys turn out to be JAGs, but rohm was a #2 rounder and most people were high on Meredith.

Martin was ditched in favour of Swain.

TT's decision keeping Swain provides evidence that Swain is viewed as more than JAG. Just because mission and sharpe1027 have the opinion doesn't make it a fact in my book.

[Joemailman]

Thank you for the research, Sharpe...

And there's nothing any more factual than him having 0 catches... not sure how that's not supporting my JAG claim.

I really wasn't even expecting a response TBH.

There's nothing more factual than noting that Ruvell was waived by the Chargers his first 2 years of training camp. It takes some guys a while to emerge.

[sharpe1027]

Of course it is not a "fact." But you can't just say that because my opinion is not 100% iron-clad no two ways about it, there isn't evidence to support it. I gave you about as much evidence as you will ever get in this type of situation.

A quote from the packers press that came directly from TT said releasing Martin was one of the hardest things TT has had to do and that it came down to special teams play of Swain. I think its is very reasonable to conclude from that the decision to cut Martin can down to him or Swain and it was the toughest one of the year. Thus, there's plenty of evidence to say that Swain barely made the roster instead of Martin because of his special teams potential.

If your point is simply that "maybe" he will not be a JAG in the future, fine. Can anyone ever provide an analysis of a player without being corrected on the off-chance that the player might improve in the future? Maybe, I'm going to make the Packer's squad this year and be more than a JAG too, and I just haven't realized my potential because I haven't put on football pads anytime in recent memory. You can't prove 100% that I won't.

How about this: Swain's play last year was that of JAG. He did very little and mainly held a roster spot while playing some special teams. Nobody knows what he will do in the future.

[sharpe1027]

TT's decision keeping Swain provides evidence that Swain is viewed as more than JAG.

Tarlam!, can you name some guys on the Packers roster that really are JAG. I'd be willing to be that I can find the same type of evidence you have for Swain for just about any of them.

[Bretsky]

Martin stunk......JAG...Just a guy...without offering any special teams help.

TT saw more upside with Swain and he saw a guy he thought could help with specials. I don't ever remember Ruvell helping there much. I remember Ruvell showing us one or two plays a year that looked good and then disappearing. His talent will be nothing we miss. He's a guy you try to replace and take a flyer on somebody you think might have more upside.

I have not seen Swain enough to have much of a view on him. But Martin needed to replaced with a guy with a better upside to become better....

P.S.......my apologies to Ballhawk in advance

[Lurker64]

Swain didn't even see the field (offensively) did he?

He saw the field offensively against Detroit in week six, but not in any of the other five games before he got injured.

[Bossman641]

Martin stunk......JAG...Just a guy...without offering any special teams help.

TT saw more upside with Swain and he saw a guy he thought could help with specials. I don't ever remember Ruvell helping there much. I remember Ruvell showing us one or two plays a year that looked good and then disappearing. His talent will be nothing we miss. He's a guy you try to replace and take a flyer on somebody you think might have more upside.
I have not seen Swain enough to have much of a view on him. But Martin needed to replaced with a guy with a better upside to become better....
P.S.......my apologies to Ballhawk in advance

Partial would really take offense to this.

i wish partial were back, and Tyrone too.