Understanding the Neal Pick

[Gunakor]

I think TT might have been able to find a trading partner to move down 10-15 spots and have gotten Neal anyway.

Everyone seems to think this is such an easy thing to pull off. Us trading back means one of those teams needed to move up to get their man AND also give up picks to us to do so. If it didn't happen it was for a reason, and the most likely one was nobody wanted to trade up. also, assuming that because it didn't happen means TT didn't try to trade back is also a reach, isn't it? (unless TT has already been quoted as saying he didn't try)

Never said it would be easy, at least not to get fair value in return. Don't put words in my mouth. Just that I thought he could do it. There was much higher rated players available at that pick. Any team that coveted any of those much higher rated players that didn't think that player would remain on the board all the way to their 3rd round pick would have at least been interested. Green Bay might have come up short on the value chart, but we'd have likely wound up with Neal anyway plus another pick. So value charts be damned, if we were gonna draft Neal by staying pat anyway we'd have still come away as winners.

No, I don't think Ted tried very hard. I think he probably took and made a few calls, but wasn't willing to trade for less than (x) amount of value. And when he found no takers he just went and took the guy he'd have had taken anyway, with no added value at all. Take a high 3 and a 7, even though you get fleeced on the value chart big time you still come away with Neal plus another pick. I find it hard to believe that no team in the league would have offered a high 3 and a 7 for that pick, given the talent left on the board at the time. If you were gonna draft Neal anyway, may has well have made the trade.

dude, you like to get fired up when you read these posts. relax, nobody is calling you out. every year people get on here and make trading back in the draft sound too easy. i just put my two cents in and am not trying to put words in peoples mouths. finally, you are actually saying you don't think TT tried hard when you have absolutely no idea what he did or did not do. and that is not puting words in your mouth.

I'm getting sick of the whole "You weren't there, you don't know what happened, blah, blah, blah." Use logic. Apply it. You don't think another team with a high 3 would have jumped at the chance to move up 15-20 spots if all it cost them was a 6th or 7th round pick? I don't have to be in a war room to know what the answer to that question is. Ted doesn't have to tell me, it can simply be assumed.

I don't know if such a trade was offered to Thompson, but I know Thompson didn't offer that trade or anything similar to anybody else to move down. So no, logically, I don't think he tried very hard, considering he was going to draft Neal that far out of position anyway.

Tell me, what about this screams to you that Ted actually did try to trade down? Or are you just giving him the benefit of the doubt?

[twoseven]

I think TT might have been able to find a trading partner to move down 10-15 spots and have gotten Neal anyway.

Everyone seems to think this is such an easy thing to pull off. Us trading back means one of those teams needed to move up to get their man AND also give up picks to us to do so. If it didn't happen it was for a reason, and the most likely one was nobody wanted to trade up. also, assuming that because it didn't happen means TT didn't try to trade back is also a reach, isn't it? (unless TT has already been quoted as saying he didn't try)

Never said it would be easy, at least not to get fair value in return. Don't put words in my mouth. Just that I thought he could do it. There was much higher rated players available at that pick. Any team that coveted any of those much higher rated players that didn't think that player would remain on the board all the way to their 3rd round pick would have at least been interested. Green Bay might have come up short on the value chart, but we'd have likely wound up with Neal anyway plus another pick. So value charts be damned, if we were gonna draft Neal by staying pat anyway we'd have still come away as winners.

No, I don't think Ted tried very hard. I think he probably took and made a few calls, but wasn't willing to trade for less than (x) amount of value. And when he found no takers he just went and took the guy he'd have had taken anyway, with no added value at all. Take a high 3 and a 7, even though you get fleeced on the value chart big time you still come away with Neal plus another pick. I find it hard to believe that no team in the league would have offered a high 3 and a 7 for that pick, given the talent left on the board at the time. If you were gonna draft Neal anyway, may has well have made the trade.

dude, you like to get fired up when you read these posts. relax, nobody is calling you out. every year people get on here and make trading back in the draft sound too easy. i just put my two cents in and am not trying to put words in peoples mouths. finally, you are actually saying you don't think TT tried hard when you have absolutely no idea what he did or did not do. and that is not puting words in your mouth.

I'm getting sick of the whole "You weren't there, you don't know what happened, blah, blah, blah." Use logic. Apply it. You don't think another team with a high 3 would have jumped at the chance to move up 15-20 spots if all it cost them was a 6th or 7th round pick? I don't have to be in a war room to know what the answer to that question is. Ted doesn't have to tell me, it can simply be assumed.

I don't know if such a trade was offered to Thompson, but I know Thompson didn't offer that trade or anything similar to anybody else to move down. So no, logically, I don't think he tried very hard, considering he was going to draft Neal that far out of position anyway.

Tell me, what about this screams to you that Ted actually did try to trade down? Or are you just giving him the benefit of the doubt?

to tell you the truth, i don't give a flying fuck. at least not enough to keep this conversation going past this post. find someone else to argue with.

[Guiness]

Just one thing that occured to me - is Cody not a fit for out D at all? Not that it matters, but a much higher rated prospect was left on the board. I wonder why TT ignored him and too Neal?

Cody's a fat slug (slowest player to ever be drafted in the modern draft era) who can really only play the nose in this defense, a position already manned by two highly paid guys in Raji and Pickett. Neal is a 295 pound man with 6 pack abs who ran a better 10-yard split than Sergio Kindle. Cody played maybe 20 plays a game for Alabama, while Neal played nearly 80 plays a game for Purdue.

Only one of these guys is going to address concerns about your DEs getting gassed in games.

An ideal defensive line rotation for a 3-4 team consists of:

2-Starting DEs (Jenkins and Jolly), one starting NT (Pickett), one backup DE (Neal), and one swing player who can play DE and NT (Raji).

Last year we had, as our backup DE, Michael Montgomery who was spectacularly useless in this defense (even moreso than any other defense).

Thanks Lurk - well explained, and you're right.

You mention above the # of plays, as did someone else. A DT who plays 75% of the plays? That's something else, didn't think it was possible.

[rbaloha1]

I think TT might have been able to find a trading partner to move down 10-15 spots and have gotten Neal anyway.

Everyone seems to think this is such an easy thing to pull off. Us trading back means one of those teams needed to move up to get their man AND also give up picks to us to do so. If it didn't happen it was for a reason, and the most likely one was nobody wanted to trade up. also, assuming that because it didn't happen means TT didn't try to trade back is also a reach, isn't it? (unless TT has already been quoted as saying he didn't try)

Why gamble? If this is the highest rated player on your board at this slot take him.

I also like Cody -- another Gilbert Brown. Could have rotated with Pickett.

Neal appears to be a good pick -- ideally suited for Capers 3-4.

[SkinBasket]

but I know Thompson didn't offer that trade or anything similar to anybody else to move down.

Source?

Seriously though, you know this?

[digitaldean]

I understand the pick, the guy can lift 500lbs and is a good 5 technique player, but I still wonder if TT still could've drafted him 30 picks later. Even if he had been taken, guys like Al Woods, LSU, Cam Thomas, NC, and Corey Wooton, Northwestern are still on the board. I guess they figured Neal was no longer a secret after the senior bowl and felt he was perfect for Capers D.

The Wooten pick may come back to haunt them. The Bears ended up getting him. Wooten would've made a great addition. I thought Neal was a head scratcher. Could have gotten him in the 3rd or 4th instead.

[The Leaper]

Use logic. Apply it. You don't think another team with a high 3 would have jumped at the chance to move up 15-20 spots if all it cost them was a 6th or 7th round pick? I don't have to be in a war room to know what the answer to that question is. Ted doesn't have to tell me, it can simply be assumed.

And your logic is dumb IMO.

You can not have any certainty where Neal would've been taken. Sure, you can base an opinion on a bunch of draft guides put together by people who aren't even affiliated with the NFL...but the bottom line is that it would be MORONIC to trade down 15-20 spots (which is an eternity in the NFL draft) for a measley 6th or 7th round pick.

Then Neal gets taken by someone else, and you are screwed.

Sorry Gunakor...your logic is extremely faulty in my book. In reality, TT probably would've been fine moving back a few picks...but no one immediately behind Green Bay was probably willing to make a move. TT has traded back more than enough to justify the notion that he likes to do it if the situation warrants. Claiming you know more than Thompson about where Neal will or won't go in the draft is a little over the top.

[The Leaper]

I thought Neal was a head scratcher. Could have gotten him in the 3rd or 4th instead.

Did you say that about Greg Jennings too?

[HarveyWallbangers]

I thought Neal was a head scratcher. Could have gotten him in the 3rd or 4th instead.

Did you say that about Greg Jennings too?

And Nick Collins.

[packers11]

I thought Neal was a head scratcher. Could have gotten him in the 3rd or 4th instead.

Did you say that about Greg Jennings too?

And Nick Collins.

yes and yes...

I was on the Chad Jackson bandwagon

[Gunakor]

but I know Thompson didn't offer that trade or anything similar to anybody else to move down.

Source?

Seriously though, you know this?

Put yourself in the shoes of an NFL GM.

Someone calls you and makes you an offer where you move up 15-20 slots from a high 3rd to a low 2nd, and all it costs you is a 7th round pick. Are you going to say no?

Nobody else would either.

I wasn't there. Like I said, I used logic and applied it. No GM worth the ink he signed his contract with would turn down an offer like that.

[Gunakor]

Use logic. Apply it. You don't think another team with a high 3 would have jumped at the chance to move up 15-20 spots if all it cost them was a 6th or 7th round pick? I don't have to be in a war room to know what the answer to that question is. Ted doesn't have to tell me, it can simply be assumed.

And your logic is dumb IMO.

You can not have any certainty where Neal would've been taken. Sure, you can base an opinion on a bunch of draft guides put together by people who aren't even affiliated with the NFL...but the bottom line is that it would be MORONIC to trade down 15-20 spots (which is an eternity in the NFL draft) for a measley 6th or 7th round pick.

Then Neal gets taken by someone else, and you are screwed.

Sorry Gunakor...your logic is extremely faulty in my book. In reality, TT probably would've been fine moving back a few picks...but no one immediately behind Green Bay was probably willing to make a move. TT has traded back more than enough to justify the notion that he likes to do it if the situation warrants. Claiming you know more than Thompson about where Neal will or won't go in the draft is a little over the top.

This isn't about the value chart Leap. It's about having Neal vs. having Neal AND another pick. That was an Al Davis-esque reach to grab him there. He wasn't going any time soon.

I agree with you, we'd have lost out big time on the value chart in these trades. I already acknowledged that on more than one occasion. The point I was making is that, if you're coveting a specific player that could be had further down the line, who cares what sort of added compensation you get. A pile of dogshit is more compensation than you'd get by staying put and drafting your guy 20 spots too high. An extra 7th round pick would have been more compensation than what we wound up with, would it not? So why would the value chart come into play at all?

You say TT probably would have been fine moving down just a few picks. So I'll go with that, since it's something you can agree to. Suppose TT moves down from #54 to #60 asking only a 7th round pick in return. Other GM bites, he'd be a damn fool not to. We still get taken big time according to a value chart which means nothing whatsoever in this particular instance. But we end up with an extra 7th round pick AND Neal. Then we can look at the board at #60 and see if the team picking #64 would also be willing to part with a 7th rounder to move up 4 slots if we felt Neal would be there at #64 - now we have TWO extra 7th rounders and Neal. The other team gets greater value, we still get the player we want and extra picks. Then maybe we can use those 2 extra 7's and our 5 to move up to get that punter from Michigan (taken 4 spots ahead of us). Or maybe a corner or an OLB that everyone's whining about us not getting. It gives us more ammo, which is what it's about IMO.

Am I crazy to think that scenario could have happened? I mean, on paper, it appears we lose big time in any of those trades, so I'd have to assume that the other teams in those trades would do it and not think twice. But each of those trades nets us more than what we wound up with in reality, having just taken Neal 20 spots too high. So they make sense to me.

[Gunakor]

I thought Neal was a head scratcher. Could have gotten him in the 3rd or 4th instead.

Did you say that about Greg Jennings too?

And Nick Collins.

And we may well have had them in the 3rd round.

This isn't about how good Neal is going to be. Neal may be a first round talent for all I know. But he had a low 3rd/high 4th round projection, and there were still higher rated DE's on the board when Neal was picked. That's precisely what I base my argument on. Neal wasn't going anytime soon.

[SkinBasket]

but I know Thompson didn't offer that trade or anything similar to anybody else to move down.

Source?

Seriously though, you know this?

Put yourself in the shoes of an NFL GM.

Someone calls you and makes you an offer where you move up 15-20 slots from a high 3rd to a low 2nd, and all it costs you is a 7th round pick. Are you going to say no?

Nobody else would either.

I wasn't there. Like I said, I used logic and applied it. No GM worth the ink he signed his contract with would turn down an offer like that.

Perhaps the teams in the trade window were fine where they were and didn't want to pay the guys they were set to pick 2nd round money instead of 3rd?

I just think it's kind of rigidly naive to simply assume that because logic dictates that something should happen, that it did happen. Unless of course you're just looking for something to bash Ted over the head about, but I never paid attention to who was pro and anti Ted, so I don't know if that's the case.

[sharpe1027]

but I know Thompson didn't offer that trade or anything similar to anybody else to move down.

Source?

Seriously though, you know this?

Put yourself in the shoes of an NFL GM.

Someone calls you and makes you an offer where you move up 15-20 slots from a high 3rd to a low 2nd, and all it costs you is a 7th round pick. Are you going to say no?

Nobody else would either.

I wasn't there. Like I said, I used logic and applied it. No GM worth the ink he signed his contract with would turn down an offer like that.

If what you say is true about all GMs automatically taking that offer, then it is logical to conclude that the trade is really bad for one team and it stands to reason that no GM worth the ink of their signed contract would/should ever offer that trade.