Williams boys CAN be suspended

[packerbacker1234]

Even if they knew what was in Star Caps (they aren't the only ones, other players took it too), it still highly doubtful it had any effect on the field, or any negative effect health wise. So... it's all silly to begin with.

And Brian Cushing didn't benefit on the field from having hCG in his system either. Both butamide and hCG are illegal because they are related to steroid use. Butamide is a steroid masking agent.

butamide itself isn't the PE. Steroid use is completely different. If star caps was used to hide steroid use... fine, but prove they used steroids first. Star Caps technically served a legit purpose for a NFL player to use that isn't Steroids related. If the players were not made aware it had a steroid masking agent, how would they know?

Cushing is a different story. Steroids don't make you stronger, they just allow you to workout longer, which gives you the unatural ability to build up the muscles faster than what is normally humanly possible.

That, and they shrink your penis.

:P

I hope those muscles are worth it Cushing.

[sharpe1027]

butamide itself isn't the PE. Steroid use is completely different. If star caps was used to hide steroid use... fine, but prove they used steroids first. Star Caps technically served a legit purpose for a NFL player to use that isn't Steroids related. If the players were not made aware it had a steroid masking agent, how would they know?

Prove they didn't take steroids and mask it with butamide. Prove they actually took starcaps and didn't just claim it after-the-fact. Prove they didn't know about the butamine in star caps before hand and took it anyway so they'd have an excuse if they go caught.

The point being you can't, which is why the NFL has a strict liability policy. Nobody would ever get suspended otherwise.

[sharpe1027]

Steroids don't make you stronger, they just allow you to workout longer, which gives you the unatural ability to build up the muscles faster than what is normally humanly possible.

The Internet says that isn't true, but I'm no doctor.

http://www.ehow.com/how-does_4911141_work-body-promote-muscle-growth.html

How Steroids Work
Throughout the body are cells, ready to absorb anything that comes into the body through an extraneous source. These are called receptors, and they are the reason why drugs work when we use them. When steroids are introduced into the body, the cell receptors accept them, and in turn instruct the body on what to do next. Because of the influx of extra testosterone, the cell receptors tell the body to start building new proteins. While the body will do this naturally based on exercise and food consumption, steroids send the process into overdrive. More proteins create bigger muscles, with added endurance and speed, as well as strength.

[get louder at lambeau]

butamide itself isn't the PE. Steroid use is completely different. If star caps was used to hide steroid use... fine, but prove they used steroids first. Star Caps technically served a legit purpose for a NFL player to use that isn't Steroids related. If the players were not made aware it had a steroid masking agent, how would they know?

Prove they didn't take steroids and mask it with butamide. Prove they actually took starcaps and didn't just claim it after-the-fact. Prove they didn't know about the butamine in star caps before hand and took it anyway so they'd have an excuse if they go caught.

The point being you can't, which is why the NFL has a strict liability policy. Nobody would ever get suspended otherwise.

Yep. You're rewriting the rules, packerbacker. Just like they don't have to "prove" Cushing used steroids, they don't have to "prove" the Williams' bros did. The NFL can and did suspend them. The only issue at this point is whether MN state law was violated, not whether the Williams' boys violated the substance abuse policy or not. They did.

[Rastak]

Did you read what I posted on the ruling? Have you followed the case? The NFL caught 8 guys a few years ago and did NOTHING. Not one was suspended. The judge referred to that in his ruling. It was also mentioned point blank in the federal ruling. The rules are applied arbitrarily already.

So they aren't allowed to enforce a drug policy because they let some guys go in the past? Why don't you try that argument if you ever get pulled over for speeding..."I'm sorry officer, but the PD let 8 people off with only warnings last year so you can't write me at ticket." I bet that doesn't get you very far.

Baseball had many of their best players on steroids a few years ago and did almost nothing to enforce the steroid policy. I suppose that means that their decision to start enforcing the drug policy more forcefully lately might also be considered arbitrary. That doesn't mean it is the wrong thing to do.

They let the first 8 skate because the drug wasn't on the label. The right thing to do would be to COMMUNICATE that 8 unamed players were found with this drug. Here's the product, don't take it, going forward we will start suspending people despite the fact we violated our own policy by not suspending the first 8. They should have called the FDA also but they apparently could care less about the public.

Is that so damn hard? Speeding tickets and union/management labor contracts don't relate whatsoever. If you were at work and watched 8 fellow employees make a personal phone call in front of management then you did and they grabbed you and said "you're fired" I'm sure you'd laugh it off while you cleaned out your McDonald's locker. (j/k!)

I highly doubt the spirit of the drug policy was this. It's to keep a level playing field so players that take PEDs don't force everyone to do it to stay competitive because they are dangerous. When you bargin these things good faith is to be expected on both sides.

[get louder at lambeau]

Did you read what I posted on the ruling? Have you followed the case? The NFL caught 8 guys a few years ago and did NOTHING. Not one was suspended. The judge referred to that in his ruling. It was also mentioned point blank in the federal ruling. The rules are applied arbitrarily already.

So they aren't allowed to enforce a drug policy because they let some guys go in the past? Why don't you try that argument if you ever get pulled over for speeding..."I'm sorry officer, but the PD let 8 people off with only warnings last year so you can't write me at ticket." I bet that doesn't get you very far.

Baseball had many of their best players on steroids a few years ago and did almost nothing to enforce the steroid policy. I suppose that means that their decision to start enforcing the drug policy more forcefully lately might also be considered arbitrary. That doesn't mean it is the wrong thing to do.

They let the first 8 skate because the drug wasn't on the label. The right thing to do would be to COMMUNICATE that 8 unamed players were found with this drug. Here's the product, don't take it, going forward we will start suspending people despite the fact we violated our own policy by not suspending the first 8. They should have called the FDA also but they apparently could care less about the public.

That would have been the ideal response.

From what I've read/heard about it, I believe the NFL instead let the first batch of players off, then sent out a letter reminding players that they are responsible for what is in their bodies, that they strongly recommend players to use only NFL approved supplements, and that there will be zero tolerance for having banned substances in your system. Not quite as ideal of a response, but not quite as sneaky and underhanded as many MN fans paint it to be.

[sharpe1027]

They let the first 8 skate because the drug wasn't on the label. The right thing to do would be to COMMUNICATE that 8 unamed players were found with this drug. Here's the product, don't take it, going forward we will start suspending people despite the fact we violated our own policy by not suspending the first 8. They should have called the FDA also but they apparently could care less about the public.

Is that so damn hard? Speeding tickets and union/management labor contracts don't relate whatsoever. If you were at work and watched 8 fellow employees make a personal phone call in front of management then you did and they grabbed you and said "you're fired" I'm sure you'd laugh it off while you cleaned out your McDonald's locker. (j/k!)

I highly doubt the spirit of the drug policy was this. It's to keep a level playing field so players that take PEDs don't force everyone to do it to stay competitive because they are dangerous. When you bargin these things good faith is to be expected on both sides.

What if the personal phone calls were made several years ago, the 8 fellow employees were given a warning and then a general warning was issued to everyone at the company about not using company things for personal use? Wouldn't you be an idiot for still using the phone?

I'm not saying the NFL was perfect, far from it. But they should be able to enforce the policy even if they let 8 people off with a warning several years ago. Much like a speeding ticket or your McDonald's example.

[cheesner]

The NFL needs to take a different process with Minnesota players, and maybe those from other states. They need to say, okay, its not a legal issue its a game time rule. It is a penalty for a player to be enhancing their play pharmacutically (or trying to cover it up) for 4 games after the infraction has been detected. 5 yards and loss of down or (on defense) 5 yards and down over.

Therefore, every play that either Williams participates in the other team gets a free 5 yards. The Vikes would of course have to bench the players anyway. This of course doesn't cost the player $, but at least it is punitive to the team.

I don't think this violates the law. They can still play, just it is just a penalty.

[sharpe1027]

The NFL needs to take a different process with Minnesota players, and maybe those from other states. They need to say, okay, its not a legal issue its a game time rule. It is a penalty for a player to be enhancing their play pharmacutically (or trying to cover it up) for 4 games after the infraction has been detected. 5 yards and loss of down or (on defense) 5 yards and down over.

Therefore, every play that either Williams participates in the other team gets a free 5 yards. The Vikes would of course have to bench the players anyway. This of course doesn't cost the player $, but at least it is punitive to the team.

I don't think this violates the law. They can still play, just it is just a penalty.

I think the articles said that even though the NFL broke the law, the suspensions could still be enforced. Whatever the penalty was, it would probably be the same issue if was enforced based upon the NFL's illegal activity.

[packerbacker1234]

Steroids don't make you stronger, they just allow you to workout longer, which gives you the unatural ability to build up the muscles faster than what is normally humanly possible.

The Internet says that isn't true, but I'm no doctor.

http://www.ehow.com/how-does_4911141_work-body-promote-muscle-growth.html

How Steroids Work
Throughout the body are cells, ready to absorb anything that comes into the body through an extraneous source. These are called receptors, and they are the reason why drugs work when we use them. When steroids are introduced into the body, the cell receptors accept them, and in turn instruct the body on what to do next. Because of the influx of extra testosterone, the cell receptors tell the body to start building new proteins. While the body will do this naturally based on exercise and food consumption, steroids send the process into overdrive. More proteins create bigger muscles, with added endurance and speed, as well as strength.

http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20071124150332AAoHWF3

Guy provided a lot of solid sources. You can take all the steroids you want, but they still account (on their own) as a very small percentage of muscle building if you just sat on your ass and pumped your body full of them. The science says you still need to maintain the proper body building diet, and workout like a mother fucker. Steroids helps in both those processes, but on it's own it not that much affect.

[sharpe1027]

Steroids don't make you stronger, they just allow you to workout longer, which gives you the unatural ability to build up the muscles faster than what is normally humanly possible.

The Internet says that isn't true, but I'm no doctor.

http://www.ehow.com/how-does_4911141_work-body-promote-muscle-growth.html

How Steroids Work
Throughout the body are cells, ready to absorb anything that comes into the body through an extraneous source. These are called receptors, and they are the reason why drugs work when we use them. When steroids are introduced into the body, the cell receptors accept them, and in turn instruct the body on what to do next. Because of the influx of extra testosterone, the cell receptors tell the body to start building new proteins. While the body will do this naturally based on exercise and food consumption, steroids send the process into overdrive. More proteins create bigger muscles, with added endurance and speed, as well as strength.

http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20071124150332AAoHWF3

Guy provided a lot of solid sources. You can take all the steroids you want, but they still account (on their own) as a very small percentage of muscle building if you just sat on your ass and pumped your body full of them. The science says you still need to maintain the proper body building diet, and workout like a mother fucker. Steroids helps in both those processes, but on it's own it not that much affect.

Haha, nobody said you could sit on your ass and magically grow muscle. Two identical twins workout the same amount and have the same diet, one takes steroids and the other does not. The steroid user will build more muscle. It's not "just allowing them to workout longer."

http://www.thepumpingstation.com/steroids.html

Anabolic steroids work by stimulating the anabolic effect discussed earlier by binding or plugging into protein receptors in or on the cells that help create new proteins in the cells. This increased biological activity is called an increase in Ribonucleic Acid Activity (RNA Activity). The construction of new proteins helps increase muscle size and strength. Remember, this normally happens in the body. The steroids stimulate or increase this biological process by binding to the receptor sites on the protein cells.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10710012

Twenty one male weight training subjects were randomly assigned in a double blind method to either a 3.5 mg(-1) x kg(-1) TE (n=11) or placebo (n=10) weight training group. The subjects were monitored during a 12 week administration phase and a subsequent 12 week follow up phase. Subjects were tested on a number of strength and size measurements, whilst having their health monitored. The results from the study revealed that the testosterone/weight training group improved significantly (p<0.05) more than the placebo/weight training group during and immediately after the administration phase on a 1 repetition maximum bench press

I could go on. Wikipedia has a ton of studies that say there are significant gains in muscle mass resulting from steroid use.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anabolic_steroids

[packrulz]

Ruling in suspensions case could clear Williamses to play in 2010

Associated Press
MINNEAPOLIS -- The Minnesota Court of Appeals has rejected the NFL's request to expedite its handling of the case of Vikings defensive tackles Kevin Williams and Pat Williams, which means they might play the entire upcoming season.

The players are fighting a closely watched legal battle that so far has blocked the NFL from suspending them for four games apiece for testing positive for a banned diuretic in 2008.

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The Williamses, who aren't related, were in training camp when they took a weight-loss supplement called StarCaps, which contained the diuretic bumetanide but didn't list it on the label. The NFL bans bumetanide because it can mask the presence of steroids, though it never accused the two players of taking steroids.

In its order, obtained Thursday but dated Tuesday, the appeals court said the NFL hasn't demonstrated that the case should receive higher priority than others. It said the case doesn't involve issues of statewide importance, and there has been no showing that either side will suffer financial hardship while the appeal is pending.

Under court rules, it could be mid- to late August before both sides have filed their briefs. Then it typically would take another six to eight months for the appeals court to hold oral arguments. The court then would have up to 90 days to issue its decision. All of that would push the ruling well into next year.

NFL spokesman Greg Aiello said the league might ask the appeals court to lift a trial judge's order blocking the suspensions.

"The court noted that the NFL has the option to seek review sooner by filing a motion to vacate the trial court's ruling blocking the suspensions," Aiello said in an e-mail. "We are studying the decision and will decide whether to pursue that option."

The Williamses' attorney, Peter Ginsberg, expressed confidence that the players will prevail, saying the courts have consistently found that the NFL violated their rights.


"We are confident that, no matter how many appeals the NFL files and no matter how much litigation the NFL pursues, the results will not change," Ginsberg said in an e-mail.

The case already has taken a complicated journey through the Minnesota and federal courts. At issue for the appeals court will be whether Hennepin County District Judge Gary Larson erred when he ruled against the Williamses in April.

Larson ruled that while the NFL broke state law when it failed to notify the players of their drug test results within the mandated three days, the league still could suspend them anyway because neither was harmed by the notification delay. Larson also stayed his ruling pending their appeal and said they were likely to succeed.

The NFL, meanwhile, has asked the U.S. Supreme Court to review a federal appeals court decision that went against the league on other legal issues in the case. The high court hasn't yet said whether it will hear that appeal. The NFL, backed by other major league sports, contends that its collective bargaining agreement with the players' union and the contract's drug testing language should trump state law.

The Williamses already have avoided suspensions for a year and a half, dating to the initial announcement by the league in December 2008. They were spared by the courts for the end of the regular season and the playoffs that year, plus the 2009-10 season as the Vikings reached the NFC title game.

Pat Williams is in the final year of his contract, and he will turn 38 in October. It's possible that he will retire before any suspension could begin.

Copyright 2010 by The Associated Press