Performance Enhancers

[twoseven]

rats, in lieu of the recent discussions on the Williams' and now Cushing, i don't think it's a bad idea to get a string going on performance enhancers in general, both legal and illegal. i for one want the differences between certain PEs to be more clear, what the different kinds are, how they can help (and posibly hurt you), more fact and less fiction. too many of them just get lumped together. this string probably belongs in the Romper Room, but so many are working on the WW and Cushind string, i figured best to start it here. i know there are at least a few rats that work out and use what can be considered a PE, there are many mopre that use PEs everyday and do not realize it. maybe this string could take some of the edge off the term PE and allow us to learn a little more about what may or may not be helping some of these guys and ourselvbes at the same time to achieve better levels of fitness. i am really interested to get some input on this subject.

[red]

is it possible to look like the after picture of cushing without taking something that the nfl deems illegal?

you can't get from point a to point b naturally, can you?

[twoseven]

personally i take quite a few PEs:

additional amounts creatine (everyone's body already makes its own)

HMB (hydroxymethylbutyrate)

every Amino Acid known to man (some in very high PE dosage: L-Arginine, L-Tyrosine, L-Alanine, Glutamic Acid, Pantothenic Acid, Lysine, Aspartic Acid)

every water and fat soluble vitamin, essential oil and mineral known to man (some in very high PE doasge: B6, B12, Vit C, Vit A, Magnesium, Chromium)

caffiene (huge PE)


all are seperate from normal dietary ingestibles, yet all are 100% legal for me and many are legal for the NFL. each one plays a different role in my pursuit of additonal strength, size, endurance, recovery, focus, and energy levels.

but on the surface when i say i take several PEs, some of you may have had different images in your head of other substances.

[twoseven]

is it possible to look like the after picture of cushing without taking something that the nfl deems illegal?

you can't get from point a to point b naturally, can you?

yes and yes. just not as quickly or safely. there are a great many natural and legal people out there that can lift more than many NFL players and are more muscular.

i have spent a lifetime around people that could naturally bench press 400-500-600 pounds, squat 600-700-800 pounds, deadlift 700-800-900 pounds. they spent 5-10-15 years, some a lifetime, building these numbers though, not a handful of months or years. that's the biggest difference. muscles that can move even fractions of this kind of weight get big, if these same people keep their bodyfat down they look incredibly muscular too. on the surface some would judge these people as taking illegal substances without knowing enough of the story.

plenty of the illegal drugs they take are running through all of us in normal and lower levels. the human body is capable of all the things we are seeing, just not to the same degree of time it takes to get them there.

[mraynrand]

The Ab lounge was sufficient to get 'Ole Cleedeeus in tip top shape. No need for PEs

[Iron Mike]

The Ab lounge was sufficient to get 'Ole Cleedeeus in tip top shape. No need for PEs

Heeeeeeeeeey....

[CaptainKickass]

Wow! Haven't seen 'Ole Cleedeeus on this forum for a LOOOOOOONNNNNNNNGGGGG ass time!

I have a different view on PE's/Steroids than most. I think the NFL should just allow it. Especially supervised. I mean it IS science and biology. I think it would benefit the game greatly, and also give a sort of legitimate petri dish environment for the long term study of the effects of each.

But then again I support a few things most don't.

[Guiness]

I use 3-4 things I would generally consider PE's.

1. Ibuprofen - 200-400mg before a game. It helps keep the pain in my knees at pay, and I get less swelling as a result of it. I also take Devil's Claw and Glucosamine supplements to help

2. Pseudoephedrine based anti-histamine - keeps my nasal passages open, rais

3. Creatine - helps me maintain muscle tone, I tend to lose it quickly when my activity is too high.

4. And yup - caffeine. Along with the PSE it keeps the excitability factor up, and sharpens reflexes.

Beer at half time...doesn't seem to help, but I keep trying!

[Guiness]

is it possible to look like the after picture of cushing without taking something that the nfl deems illegal?

you can't get from point a to point b naturally, can you?

Which after picture?

The one of him flexing? Yes, that's not that much, really. I'd say there were half a dozen guys I played ball with that looked like that.

This is what you can't look like without the PE's


The after picture of him with the nipples? I'd say that's damming than the muscular picture. Low body fat and males breasts are a dead giveaway.

[Freak Out]

How much chromium are we talking 27?

[pbmax]

Try this first: http://www.scribd.com/doc/14066744/N...ned-Substances

The drug policy itself and the banned list as of 2007.

[twoseven]

How much chromium are we talking 27?

150-200 mcg, nothing too serious. RDA is about 100 mcg. vitamin B6 and B12 are anywhere from 500-5000% RDA though depending on what i might mix to drink from day to day. lots of energy from those, check your energy drink of choice, you'll find plnety of vitamins and aminos that are getting you going, plus some caffiene as well.

[bobblehead]

HMB seems to me to be the best legal PE I have ever encountered. If I lay off the weights for 2 weeks, but continue with the HMB I never seem to lose a thing, but lay off the HMB during the same period and I feel like a teenager again.

27, I agree with most everything you say, but the pictures you posted in the other thread were of guys who dedicate their entire time on this planet to achieving those bodies. Guys who play pro sports can't do this. The recovery time of their chosen profession makes it near impossible to lift in a manner necessary.

Taking it a step further I would say its likely that at least 1 of them is using something illegal and really good at not getting caught. Further yet I would say to achieve that type of muscularity in the biceps takes freekish genetics and 98% of the population could never achieve that without "cheating". Sorry, but I am so skeptical at this point that I tend to not believe most people making a claim, evidence to the contrary. Could all those guys achieve those physiques naturally? Sure, if they are all gifted genetically and aviod injury. Do I believe that in a random sample of 4 exceptional physiques where all 4 claim to be natural, that at least 2 are lying....yes, sadly I do.

Its also much harder to guess looking at guys oiled up and in competition poses where they have pumped the blood into the muscles for the fullest look they can achieve. Again referring to Frank Zane, he often talked about the bloated stomach look of roid freaks. Designer roids are better nowdays to the point where telling the difference between a recreational user and the guys in those pictures is harder than ever. The hardcore users are still likely to stand out though.

For my taste they should legalize the entire spectrum for non competitors. Used responsibly HgH and T are all benefit with no downside. Designers roids are so good that used in conjunction with a health professional they are safe as well. I'm all about my health, and I would have no vanity issues with using a substance to achieve a better body and a healthier body at this point in my life. Too bad for me a few politicians know what is best for me and getting HgH is next to impossible (all evidence of it being harmful to the contrary).

[twoseven]

HMB seems to me to be the best legal PE I have ever encountered. If I lay off the weights for 2 weeks, but continue with the HMB I never seem to lose a thing, but lay off the HMB during the same period and I feel like a teenager again.

27, I agree with most everything you say, but the pictures you posted in the other thread were of guys who dedicate their entire time on this planet to achieving those bodies. Guys who play pro sports can't do this. The recovery time of their chosen profession makes it near impossible to lift in a manner necessary.

Taking it a step further I would say its likely that at least 1 of them is using something illegal and really good at not getting caught. Further yet I would say to achieve that type of muscularity in the biceps takes freekish genetics and 98% of the population could never achieve that without "cheating". Sorry, but I am so skeptical at this point that I tend to not believe most people making a claim, evidence to the contrary. Could all those guys achieve those physiques naturally? Sure, if they are all gifted genetically and aviod injury. Do I believe that in a random sample of 4 exceptional physiques where all 4 claim to be natural, that at least 2 are lying....yes, sadly I do.

Its also much harder to guess looking at guys oiled up and in competition poses where they have pumped the blood into the muscles for the fullest look they can achieve. Again referring to Frank Zane, he often talked about the bloated stomach look of roid freaks. Designer roids are better nowdays to the point where telling the difference between a recreational user and the guys in those pictures is harder than ever. The hardcore users are still likely to stand out though.

For my taste they should legalize the entire spectrum for non competitors. Used responsibly HgH and T are all benefit with no downside. Designers roids are so good that used in conjunction with a health professional they are safe as well. I'm all about my health, and I would have no vanity issues with using a substance to achieve a better body and a healthier body at this point in my life. Too bad for me a few politicians know what is best for me and getting HgH is next to impossible (all evidence of it being harmful to the contrary).

dude, you and i both have a very different perspective of what is and is not possible both naturally an unnatrually than most people. i hope you can understand that there are plenty of people out there that look at a normal person with some muscles and will still think something is up. this is what i am hoping will change. i just get tired of everyone automatically thinking someone is cheating just because they can move a lot of weight or has a pretty good physique.

the entire point of posting those natural shots was to open some eyes out there as to what is possible and just how much that oil and light can make someone go from normal to freak. you and i already get it, it's the others i am hoping to reach. i also posted those very non freaky shots of the baseball playes to illustrate how you can still be on something and not be a big ripped up specimen. i just don't think it is fair to have an automatic pass/fail at the ready after looking at a photo without knowing more about a person or player before passing judgement. i hope you can understand.

the levels to which this discussion are going are really getting off the mark considering how they started, we could go on for awhile about things that are going to go too far over some heads and make what could be a interesting discussion to damn confusing and or boring. i'd rather keep it simple. my point was only to let others know that cushing's big muscles (while possibly tainted) can still be achieved legally, and that no one should rush to judgement becuase of what they do or do not see in a photo. fair enough?

meanwhile, yes HMB is the bomb. if you can find it cheap enough to be able to get enough in your system it will really add to your strength. i sell some and handed some free samples to friends at the gym i am at. their eyes nearly popped out of their heads when they saw what happened to their gains the next couple of weeks, and then at a less rapid pace as weeks went on. unlike the elevated creatine levels, i have yet to lose one ounce of gain when i take a couple weeks off. very nice. i have yet to see it on any banned lists and am happy about this.

[bobblehead]

I will give it to you for your main point. Even though I think one of those guys cheats, I would say its also just almost a lock that at least one is genuinely clean. And if any one of those guys is clean it says a lot about what is possible.

I have a close friend who I took from 6'4" and 170lbs to 225lbs in 2 years.....all VERY clean. Creatine, HMB and protein shakes. No T boosters, no tribulus, no DHEA, nothing other than those 3 proven safe PE's. It turned out to be a mistake as I could never take him down in our sparring sessions after that.

You are correct that guys can get in very good shape and look really good if they work hard at it. When I was 26 I was able to achieve a remarkable physique and strenght (benched 225 a solit 26 times). Like I said, I hit a limit at about 190lbs. (I'm only 5'9") After that I lost definition as I gained size. By 35 I started getting injuries in the elbows and shoulders. Thus my obsession with HgH. It would allow for the connective tissue to keep up with my strength at the age of 40. Instead I get a steady diet of watching myself slip, or ending up with a shoulder scope. Ah to be young again like Cushing and not NEED the junk he chose to take.

Again to your point....guys who are TRULY dedicated to proper nutrition and lifting habits can look silly good. Jim Cordova competes in the drug free circuit and for my taste his physique is superior to any of the bloated midsection Roidhead freaks out there. I bet that cat gets the chics in droves.