Packers offer contract to Tramon Williams

[retailguy]

respectfully Zig. You're the one with the strawman here.

No I'm not.

I guess this is where I say "are too! are too!".

But seriously. Bringing in an experienced vet at a position of limited or questionable depth is not the same thing as locking up a position with solid depth with our own veteran who has played well. And it never will be the same thing.

That point was made based on the lack of depth and dislike of a rookie. It just isn't the same thing.

Leapers point was based on declining play of an existing veteran. Something you couldn't know until AFTER the player inks the deal. See folks here think that Ted does well at "predicting" other players faults and drop offs. But realistically, when you lock up your own and can't see the faults, it makes it clear and definitive that predicting this stuff is an inexact science.

[MJZiggy]

respectfully Zig. You're the one with the strawman here.

No I'm not.

I guess this is where I say "are too! are too!".

But seriously. Bringing in an experienced vet at a position of limited or questionable depth is not the same thing as locking up a position with solid depth with our own veteran who has played well. And it never will be the same thing.

That point was made based on the lack of depth and dislike of a rookie. It just isn't the same thing.

Leapers point was based on declining play of an existing veteran. Something you couldn't know until AFTER the player inks the deal. See folks here think that Ted does well at "predicting" other players faults and drop offs. But realistically, when you lock up your own and can't see the faults, it makes it clear and definitive that predicting this stuff is an inexact science.

And you knew Al would end up on IR how? We knew Chuck would struggle this year how (recalling that Chuck himself said if he couldn't play corner anymore he'd play safety)? You can't have a whole team of high priced vets and I'd say I'd rather have the guys that we have than some of those folks around here have been clamoring for. Let's remember how all those vets you guys have wanted played for their new teams. Who wanted Haynesworth (Washington's $100 million backup)? Frankly, I want Thompson to lock up ALL of our GOOD players, not just the vets or the youth.

[retailguy]

And you knew Al would end up on IR how? We knew Chuck would struggle this year how (recalling that Chuck himself said if he couldn't play corner anymore he'd play safety)? You can't have a whole team of high priced vets and I'd say I'd rather have the guys that we have than some of those folks around here have been clamoring for. Let's remember how all those vets you guys have wanted played for their new teams. Who wanted Haynesworth (Washington's $100 million backup)? Frankly, I want Thompson to lock up ALL of our GOOD players, not just the vets or the youth.

Ok. Now you're making my point. In my first post, or pretty close to it, I said I didn't agree with Leapers point.

What I objected to, was your defense of Ted by comparing our veterans to other free agents and calling them the same thing.

They aren't.

For several years we played with questionable depth when better free agents were available. We chose not to pursue those, and we paid a price for it, and sometimes we didn't notice the difference and developed a suitable alternative. For several years our OL sucked. For several years our punter has sucked. This season our LB depth was questionable. There were people we could have brought in but we didn't. It's the way Ted does things. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't. Sometimes injuries get in the way, and sometimes they haven't.

These decisions just aren't the same thing as locking up Clifton, Harris, or whomever.

My real point of contention is that there is nothing that you don't defend when it comes to "he who shall not be criticized".

Your post above? I completely agree with, and have always said that I do.

[MJZiggy]

I gave credit to TT for bringing back Tauscher and Clifton; those were great moves. Ditto for Driver and Harris.

But TT is not above criticicm and I'm not going to join in on the general sarcastic tones toward those who question him

That's fine Bretsky, I understand.

I'll gladly return to the back of the bus on this topic, if ANYONE can point to one decision that Ted made that hasn't been defended. Just one.

There is no valid reason to criticize "he who shall not be criticized".

Switching punters after last camp. WTF? I don't recall any non-head scratching after that one?

[MJZiggy]

And you knew Al would end up on IR how? We knew Chuck would struggle this year how (recalling that Chuck himself said if he couldn't play corner anymore he'd play safety)? You can't have a whole team of high priced vets and I'd say I'd rather have the guys that we have than some of those folks around here have been clamoring for. Let's remember how all those vets you guys have wanted played for their new teams. Who wanted Haynesworth (Washington's $100 million backup)? Frankly, I want Thompson to lock up ALL of our GOOD players, not just the vets or the youth.

Ok. Now you're making my point. In my first post, or pretty close to it, I said I didn't agree with Leapers point.

What I objected to, was your defense of Ted by comparing our veterans to other free agents and calling them the same thing.

They aren't.

For several years we played with questionable depth when better free agents were available. We chose not to pursue those, and we paid a price for it, and sometimes we didn't notice the difference and developed a suitable alternative. For several years our OL sucked. For several years our punter has sucked. This season our LB depth was questionable. There were people we could have brought in but we didn't. It's the way Ted does things. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't. Sometimes injuries get in the way, and sometimes they haven't.

These decisions just aren't the same thing as locking up Clifton, Harris, or whomever.

My real point of contention is that there is nothing that you don't defend when it comes to "he who shall not be criticized".

Your post above? I completely agree with, and have always said that I do.

I do consider it the same thing. Free agents come with a high price tag. That price tag has the serious potential to prevent us locking up players like Jennings and DD and Al. If TT believes there's a Tramon Williams worth developing than signing a high priced castoff becomes even more expensive. How many of the kids he's signed wouldn't be here right now? Therefore I don't believe that he deserved the criticism for not signing free agents then and you're calling our guys old and ineffective. What the hell do you think all those other teams' FAs are: old and ineffective. I simply ain't buying the logic. Our old guys > their old guys.

[retailguy]

I gave credit to TT for bringing back Tauscher and Clifton; those were great moves. Ditto for Driver and Harris.

But TT is not above criticicm and I'm not going to join in on the general sarcastic tones toward those who question him

That's fine Bretsky, I understand.

I'll gladly return to the back of the bus on this topic, if ANYONE can point to one decision that Ted made that hasn't been defended. Just one.

There is no valid reason to criticize "he who shall not be criticized".

Switching punters after last camp. WTF? I don't recall any non-head scratching after that one?

You and I have different recollections of that. I remember a spirited defense of "it's just a punter". "Frost is just as good". "Ryan wasn't reliable".

[retailguy]

I do consider it the same thing. Free agents come with a high price tag. That price tag has the serious potential to prevent us locking up players like Jennings and DD and Al. If TT believes there's a Tramon Williams worth developing than signing a high priced castoff becomes even more expensive. How many of the kids he's signed wouldn't be here right now? Therefore I don't believe that he deserved the criticism for not signing free agents then and you're calling our guys old and ineffective. What the hell do you think all those other teams' FAs are: old and ineffective. I simply ain't buying the logic. Our old guys > their old guys.

I know you consider it the same thing. I don't. We disagree.

I understand the "high priced free agent" argument, and agree with that for the most part. There were plenty of free agents that didn't get ridiculous money. We didn't get any of them either.

We just don't pursue free agents heavily. It just isn't the make up of the way Ted does things. On an occasional basis if someone strikes his fancy we might try, and once in a while we get one, but it isn't a "focus".

I see benefits and I see drawbacks to that. But if you discuss a drawback? dirty pool. Or worse, 20 reasons why you got it wrong.

You just can't criticize the guy.

[MJZiggy]

I do consider it the same thing. Free agents come with a high price tag. That price tag has the serious potential to prevent us locking up players like Jennings and DD and Al. If TT believes there's a Tramon Williams worth developing than signing a high priced castoff becomes even more expensive. How many of the kids he's signed wouldn't be here right now? Therefore I don't believe that he deserved the criticism for not signing free agents then and you're calling our guys old and ineffective. What the hell do you think all those other teams' FAs are: old and ineffective. I simply ain't buying the logic. Our old guys > their old guys.

I know you consider it the same thing. I don't. We disagree.

I understand the "high priced free agent" argument, and agree with that for the most part. There were plenty of free agents that didn't get ridiculous money. We didn't get any of them either.

We just don't pursue free agents heavily. It just isn't the make up of the way Ted does things. On an occasional basis if someone strikes his fancy we might try, and once in a while we get one, but it isn't a "focus".

I see benefits and I see drawbacks to that. But if you discuss a drawback? dirty pool. Or worse, 20 reasons why you got it wrong.

You just can't criticize the guy.

Yes you can, but if you're hypocritical about it because he can do nothing RIGHT in your eyes (not yours, leaper's). I'll call that out. To me this is a SUPREME example of hypocrisy by criticizing the age of the players no matter what the age of the players he signs is. He only signs kids, he NEVER signs veterans. He signs a few veterans, it's about time he offers some money to a young player with upside rather than these aging ineffective players. So how's he supposed to win in this argument? Please tell me.

[retailguy]

Yes you can, but if you're hypocritical about it because he can do nothing RIGHT in your eyes (not yours, leaper's). I'll call that out. To me this is a SUPREME example of hypocrisy by criticizing the age of the players no matter what the age of the players he signs is. He only signs kids, he NEVER signs veterans. He signs a few veterans, it's about time he offers some money to a young player with upside rather than these aging ineffective players. So how's he supposed to win in this argument? Please tell me.

Well, I can't speak for leaper, but I think it's bigger than that at this point. Honestly, I doubt that anyone believes that Thompson can't "do anything right". I certainly don't. I've said time and time again that he's a great talent evaluator for example.

That being said, anytime that you bring up any decision that Ted's made, you are summarily attacked with "facts", "statistics", "supposition", and reasons why you have to be wrong. There is no valid reason to criticize the guy.

FWIW, I think you're spending a lot of time defending a guy that doesn't give a shit what we think. It's why he gets the big bucks and makes the big decisions. He'll live or die by them, and as fans, so will we.

I just maintain that he isn't perfect, and he makes his share of mistakes. No one is "allowed" to discuss those mistakes here. That's all I was saying in this thread.

You and I had a pretty good conversation. Over the coming days, one of two things will happen.

1 - Every point that I made will be dissected, analyzed and all those reasons I talked about will be brought to the surface.

2 - No one will say anything.

In any event our good discussion will not continue on a larger level.

[vince]

Very little of ANYTHING around here is said that somebody (different people) doesn't disagree with. Why complain about it?

[denverYooper]

I agree he's having a good year so far. He also has yet to face any offense (or WR) that is scary good through the air. Rankings in passing yardage/QB rating:

Philly - 8th/6th
Washington - 9th/23rd
Detroit - 13th/21st
Chicago - 16th/29th
Miami - 17th/20th
Buffalo - 26th/13th
Minnesota - 27th/30th

Look at the QB ratings on the offenses we've faced. Clearly, Tramon hasn't been playing against elite passing competition to this point. Only 2 teams above 20th in QB rating...and one of those is Buffalo. Philly is the only competent passing offense we've faced thus far.

Sorry, but I'm not about to hand him a Pro Bowl berth just yet...regardless of what any coach says. I like Tramon...I'd love for him to remain a Packer long term...but I ain't breaking the bank yet for 7 games against mediocre competition. Starting at around $6M is fair IMO...and if Tramon keeps up the great play for a 16 game season, then his price tag can go up.

Philly, Chicago and Minnesota were supposed to pass all over us. Never happened. Months ago, all anybody wanted to talk about was the AZ game and how we can't stop a passing attack. It didn't take very long for us to forget about all of that... T-Will is a huge part of it.. especially with Woodson playing up and down.

He's shut down each team's top receiving threat with maybe the Miami game being somewhat of an exception.

I'm with Mish on this one. We keep facing teams that are supposed to take apart the "questionable" secondary and those guys, Tramon especially, keep playing at an elite level.

[Joemailman]

I gave credit to TT for bringing back Tauscher and Clifton; those were great moves. Ditto for Driver and Harris.

But TT is not above criticicm and I'm not going to join in on the general sarcastic tones toward those who question him

That's fine Bretsky, I understand.

I'll gladly return to the back of the bus on this topic, if ANYONE can point to one decision that Ted made that hasn't been defended. Just one.

There is no valid reason to criticize "he who shall not be criticized".

There probably hasn't been one. We debate things here. There's been about 550,000 posts on this site. Odds are there will be someone to defend any decision TT makes.

[MJZiggy]

I gave credit to TT for bringing back Tauscher and Clifton; those were great moves. Ditto for Driver and Harris.

But TT is not above criticicm and I'm not going to join in on the general sarcastic tones toward those who question him

That's fine Bretsky, I understand.

I'll gladly return to the back of the bus on this topic, if ANYONE can point to one decision that Ted made that hasn't been defended. Just one.

There is no valid reason to criticize "he who shall not be criticized".

There probably hasn't been one. We debate things here. There's been about 550,000 posts on this site. Odds are there will be someone to defend any decision TT makes.

There will also be someone to criticize it...

[gbgary]

I gave credit to TT for bringing back Tauscher and Clifton; those were great moves. Ditto for Driver and Harris.

But TT is not above criticicm and I'm not going to join in on the general sarcastic tones toward those who question him

That's fine Bretsky, I understand.

I'll gladly return to the back of the bus on this topic, if ANYONE can point to one decision that Ted made that hasn't been defended. Just one.

There is no valid reason to criticize "he who shall not be criticized".

There probably hasn't been one. We debate things here. There's been about 550,000 posts on this site. Odds are there will be someone to defend any decision TT makes.

sure there is...mm.

[Guiness]

And you knew Al would end up on IR how? We knew Chuck would struggle this year how (recalling that Chuck himself said if he couldn't play corner anymore he'd play safety)? You can't have a whole team of high priced vets and I'd say I'd rather have the guys that we have than some of those folks around here have been clamoring for. Let's remember how all those vets you guys have wanted played for their new teams. Who wanted Haynesworth (Washington's $100 million backup)? Frankly, I want Thompson to lock up ALL of our GOOD players, not just the vets or the youth.

WHOA!!!!!!!!!

Was that a 'what if'? Al (Harris, right?) is on the IR? That happened when?