Where the blame really lies

[Patler]

OK. Serious this time. I started a few goofy threads to lighten the mood for a serious, hopefully analytical and not emotional discussion. Many of you saw the threads for what they were, a suggestion that we should all take a deep breath, then discuss the fiasco we witnessed today.

The defense played very well.
Special teams played well/good enough to win.

Some individuals made some mistakes, but that happens. You have to accept that no one is perfect, not even Greg Jennings, and once in a while a ball will get away from him.

However, the one group that got overwhelmed continuously was the O-line, and it wasn't just an occasional play made by a great player like Suh. It was a total failure of the O-line as a unit, with each and every one of them being dominated by the man across from them. There was no place to run, there was no protection in the passing game. While there are solid players and a budding star in Suh, this was three good, but not great d-linemen and Suh absolutely dominating first 5 blockers, then six when a TE was kept in, or even 7 with a back; all trying to handle four Lions, with little blitzing.

Unfortunately, this was not unique. There has been little running room all year, and the protection given to Rodgers has been very, very shoddy. He rarely has a clean pocket, and only his willingness to run and his ability to make throws on the move have kept the offense going.

But, in the end, a good O-line is essential to win consistently, because they take over close games and get you the points when you need them by opening holes for the backs, and giving the QB time and confidence to execute the passing game.

Sadly, this is what the O-line has been under MM each and every year. I believe that there is either a basic philosophical flaw in what they do as a unit, or the coaching is bad, because even average NFL linemen should not be absolutely dominated play after play after play by the four d-linemen the Lions have. The Packer O-line was not prepared to handle what the Lions brought. Because of that, the Packers lost.

[Noodle]

Let me second this. I know that Patler has been trying to get Campen dumped for a while (I'm guessing football-guy Campen gave math-geek Patler a world-class wedgie in gym class that still stings to this day), but at this point, the abject failure of the OL to become a competent unit is glaring.

An OL can understandly suffer from immaturity -- it takes a while to develop a cohesive unit.

But the Pack OL has been relatively stable this season, yet they have consistently failed at run blocking and have often sucked in passpro. And the basic pieces of the OL (Sitton, Wells, College, Cliffy, Tausch, Lang, Spitz) have been in play for at least two years, with Bulaga the only rook.

The Pack OL is composed of big guys -- we're bigger than the Pat's OL by more than a plate full of bisquits. So it's not like we have a crew of ballerinas brought in for the ZBS. No, the problem goes beyond that, and I have to agree with Patler that it is coaching. The thing I don't know is whether the game plan coaches are doing a good job understanding match-up issues and are asking our guys to do things they can't.

But that goes back to the first question -- why can't they?

Coaching.

[th87]

Agree completely. For all the talk about MM's play calling, the real problem goes back to execution, and the line has been the weak link for years. Even though sack numbers are down, I still don't see the clean pocket that Brady seems to enjoy.

Fix that, and MM is regarded as a genius.

[packrulz]

I think Suh is a great, dominating, pro bowl caliber defensive lineman, he was very disruptive and made his teammates look better. I also think the turnovers lost the game, not necessarily the Packers offensive line. However, I agree that the run blocking is terrible, the Packers have become one dimensional, the last time a Packer had 100 yards rushing was Oct. 10th, when BJack had 115 against the Redskins. I'm not convinced it's poor coaching either, it might be lack of talent. Sitton/Bulaga are pretty good, but Wells/Colledge/Clifton don't run block very well at all. Campen can coach the hell out of them (pad level dammit) but I doubt they'll ever be good run blockers. If the Packers don't make the playoffs, I think they should give McDonald some starts at center, Spitz at left guard, and Lang at left tackle, just to see what they've got.

[mmmdk]

Agree with Patler; I don't agree with McCarthy ever looking like a genius [th87 remark].

What do we want? What does TT & players want? A championship I hope. Then changes must be made & I'd go as high as new head coach but what Patler points out are the things that should be looked at ASAP. Then add special teams even though they did fine yesterday.

Q: How many years left on McCarthy contract?

[mmmdk]

I think Suh is a great, dominating, pro bowl caliber defensive lineman, he was very disruptive and made his teammates look better. I also think the turnovers lost the game, not necessarily the Packers offensive line. However, I agree that the run blocking is terrible, the Packers have become one dimensional, I can't remember the last time a Packer had 100 yards rushing. I'm not convinced it's poor coaching, it might be lack of talent. Sitton/Bulaga are pretty good, but Wells/Colledge/Clifton don't run block very well at all. Campen can coach the hell out of them (pad level dammit) but I doubt they'll ever be good run blockers. If the Packers don't make the playoffs, I think they should give McDonald some starts at center, Spitz at left guard, and Lang at left tackle, just to see what they've got.

Only a Vick or AR type of QB can survive our crappy pass protection. AR is too often the leader rusher; that's gonna end badly - sooner or later.

[vince]

The Packers obviously were outplayed all along the o-line. Clifton, Wells and Bulaga all got pushed back with regularity - to the extent that way too many plays were disrupted in the backfield. Spitz couldn't even seem to get in the way.

They also were outschemed along the front. When the Lions blitzed, it worked. They were able to isolate TE's on DE's. Crabtree got abused trying to block guys one on one way too big and strong for him to handle. They often put two big d-linemen way outside to force mismatches and threatened or brought linebackers up the middle. The Packers didn't block it properly or weren't prepared with on-the-fly adjustments. They did not have the checks and audibles in place to offset what the Lions were doing at the line. Simple as that.

Suh is great, but they made average d-linemen look like Pro-Bowlers.

Add to that a bunch of turnovers, including a huge one in the endzone and another dropped TD pass and you have one of the ugliest performances from the Packers taht I can remember.

They obviously need help and need some serious corrections, but I think the Packers still have a good shot to make the playoffs if they can beat the Giants and Bears at home to finish the regular season.

[3irty1]

In the small sample size I've seen I've determined that Jim Schwartz is absolutely adept at forming game plans against MM and especially Capers.

MM runs a true multiples offense, you never quite know what you'll see on any given week. Schematically the Packers are pretty unpredictable and Schwartz focused on what he could control. All you have to go off of is tendencies. Based on this season you know we are going to get most of our rushing yards off of broken scrambles and designed draws. You know that we will mess with your tempo and substitutions by going no huddle, and by switching formations quickly and sometimes drastically (full house to 5-wide). The other thing you know is who we are going to put on the field and Schwartz and co. found some alarming mismatches all over our DL. He seemed to have a new package and a new alignment for every situation and all of them worked. Suh was too much for Sitton, Sammie Lee Hill laughed at Wells, Corey hall embarrassed College, Clifton struggled with a rotation of guys, Bulaga was overwhelmed and confused with some funky two player alignments on his side.

On defense the mismatches were even worse IMO. The Packers running defense is not nearly as poor as the talking heads wanted us to believe and in fact have taken very little damage from running backs all year long. By no means should the lions have had that kind of success against us. Atlanta's main plan to run the ball on us involved trying to isolate Frank Zombo, Detroit did this all too easily probably due in part to the absence of Cullen Jenkins who would normally being playing next to Zombo.

Jim Schwartz's team isn't good but I have a feeling that we haven't lost our last game to him. He seems to have MM figured out and knows exactly how to attack us on offense and defense.

[pbmax]

MM runs a true multiples offense, you never quite know what you'll see on any given week. Schematically the Packers are pretty unpredictable and Schwartz focused on what he could control. All you have to go off of is tendencies. Based on this season you know we are going to get most of our rushing yards off of broken scrambles and designed draws. You know that we will mess with your tempo and substitutions by going no huddle, and by switching formations quickly and sometimes drastically (full house to 5-wide). The other thing you know is who we are going to put on the field and Schwartz and co. found some alarming mismatches all over our DL. He seemed to have a new package and a new alignment for every situation and all of them worked. Suh was too much for Sitton, Sammie Lee Hill laughed at Wells, Corey hall embarrassed College, Clifton struggled with a rotation of guys, Bulaga was overwhelmed and confused with some funky two player alignments on his side.

You do realize Colledge played 2 plays total?

[3irty1]

No I didn't, but lets make a thread on that. I assume it was Lang I saw getting caught up high then.

[pbmax]

Spitz came in for Colledge as he apparently hurt his knee tackling the returner after the Quarless fumble. But Lang, for reasons unknown to me, replaced Spitz by the second half.

In fairness, losing the starter didn't help Wells combat Suh.

[Pugger]

Yes, the O line was atrocious but because we screwed up by turning the ball over we lost the game. Even with our crappy O line blocking we still could have won the game had we not given them the ball right before we were in the position to score 3 times yesterday. But these O line woes MUST be addressed before we can think about winning any championships around here.

[Pugger]

Spitz came in for Colledge as he apparently hurt his knee tackling the returner after the Quarless fumble. But Spitz, for reasons unknown to me, replaced him by the second half.

In fairness, losing the starter didn't help Wells combat Suh.

Good lord, two starters injure themselves after a turnover (remember Finley in DC?)!?

[denverYooper]

Spitz came in for Colledge as he apparently hurt his knee tackling the returner after the Quarless fumble. But Spitz, for reasons unknown to me, replaced him by the second half.

In fairness, losing the starter didn't help Wells combat Suh.

Good point. Detroit's front is a tough one to lose a starting OL guy against.

[pbmax]

I will say this about the defense. It surrendered too much on the ground again. And this was not a mobile QB escaping the pass rush while the D played man coverage. Stanton could not drive that offense via the pass and they still were able to run for first downs. This meant time of possession (and number of possessions) and field position were evenly contested rather than wins for the Packers, even with reasonable KO coverage and good punting.

Its clearly the second problem after the offense, but while the Packers offseason depth chart will look great, injuries have reduced this line to below average.