Are we gritty enough?

[MJZiggy]

I'd argue "gritty" is a term that is lost in today's NFL. When I think gritty I think of players and teams that used to hate one another. With FA and the closeness players share today, I think grittiness is a thing of the past.

There is a reason guys like Harrison and Ray Lewis are considered dinosaurs of the past.

I agree. It's hard to really hate someone when you know you could be playing for them next season.

[Pugger]

From what I hear Sitton has a nasty streak for an O lineman. He isnt' dirty by any stretch but he is relentless and hustles to the whistle. Rodgers played an entire half on a broken foot against NE several years ago. Didn't #4 play with a concussion earlier in his career? It isn't until recently that teams are taking "getting your bell rung' more seriously. I vaguely remember someone giving Favre smelling salts right before he went back in a game a couple of times. Today he'd never go back in like that. But Patler is right, Rodgers will have to be a little more careful about getting unnecessary hits in the future if he wants a long career.

[Scott Campbell]

How the hell do you peg Rodgers as too fragile?

Especially after labeling Mathews as gritty. Mathews has been much more injury prone than Rodgers.

[packerbacker1234]

You want to talk aobut Gritty at the QB position.

When I think of Gritty for the QB, I think of the grind it out type guys. The guys that get hit a lot, yet still find ways to move the chains.

Think Big Ben for the steelers, or msot recently what Flynn did against NE. Not only was it a gusty performance, it was a grind it out type performance, He got hit a lot - some his fault some the fault of the OL not knowing it's assignements - but he found ways to move the chains. He was a grinder, and it's a style we just haven't seen in GB for a long time. That was at least a "gritty" performance by flynn.

Rodgers, to me, is more of a finesse player. He relies on wide open pockets, and crisp passes with a little touch of them. He's more of a Peyton Manning mold at QB, in that he is a big time thinker, and relies a lot on "touch". Doesn't always care as much about getting first downs as he does about what WR that is the deepest is open. Doesn't like to settle for the 5 yard passes like a grinder does. He's really good, great even, but hardly does he have a gritty demeanor about him. Broken foot, two concussions... not exactly great at taking hits.

[th87]

I'm not looking at this as a toughness issue or a propensity for injury.

I'm looking at this solely from a mental standpoint. Do we have psychos on the field? Ray Lewis, James Harrison, Kevin Greene, Wayne Simmons, John Randle, Ray Nitschke, Ronnie Lott type mentalities.

Angry players.

[Bretsky]

I like Rodgers a lot but would not consider him Gritty either.

I'd like a couple hard ass players. Tough guy Maulers, like the two All Americans at OL for UW Madison. They fight on the sideline about who erred with each other.

I loved Wayne Simmons and would love another tough guy on the D as well

[Fritz]

We want a dickhead on our side!

[th87]

We want a dickhead on our side!

Haha, as odd as it sounds, I do think that having a few would solve our end of game woes.

[th87]

Finley is a bad ass. He was my favorite Packer until Mattews exploded early in the year when he was healthy.

TE's block in tight quarters and catch, so it's not like he's going to string together a highlight reel of big hits, but when he gets a chance, I think he's always looking to take someones head off.

Right on. Finley has the right attitude. Very badass.

[th87]

You want to talk aobut Gritty at the QB position.

When I think of Gritty for the QB, I think of the grind it out type guys. The guys that get hit a lot, yet still find ways to move the chains.

Think Big Ben for the steelers, or msot recently what Flynn did against NE. Not only was it a gusty performance, it was a grind it out type performance, He got hit a lot - some his fault some the fault of the OL not knowing it's assignements - but he found ways to move the chains. He was a grinder, and it's a style we just haven't seen in GB for a long time. That was at least a "gritty" performance by flynn.

Rodgers, to me, is more of a finesse player. He relies on wide open pockets, and crisp passes with a little touch of them. He's more of a Peyton Manning mold at QB, in that he is a big time thinker, and relies a lot on "touch". Doesn't always care as much about getting first downs as he does about what WR that is the deepest is open. Doesn't like to settle for the 5 yard passes like a grinder does. He's really good, great even, but hardly does he have a gritty demeanor about him. Broken foot, two concussions... not exactly great at taking hits.

Rodgers is a tough dude. But you're right that is style is more of a finesse type. That's okay though - it didn't hurt Montana or Young. Brady is finesse too, but he has Jordan-like competitiveness - something I don't see from Rodgers. But Bart Starr was laid back too, so this isn't something that necessarily hurts Rodgers.

[Fritz]

Joe Kapp was gritty as all get out.

[Patler]

How the hell do you peg Rodgers as too fragile?

Especially after labeling Mathews as gritty. Mathews has been much more injury prone than Rodgers.

- I should have never used those two words, "too fragile" because it caused you to focus on something that is really not part of being "gritty" - whether or not you are injury prone. I suspect that a lot of players who I think of as gritty are also injury prone.

- It appears the two of you focused on those two words I wrote about Rodgers, and ignored the balance of my rather lengthy post in which I explained what I think of as "gritty". I think I clearly explained why I think of Mathews as "gritty." "Mathews is the epitome of what I understand as "gritty". He likes to destroy people, tackles roughly and never stops."

- I do not see Rodgers as a guy that particularly enjoys a physical game, even if he is forced to endure one. I think Mathews relishes it. I get the feeling Rodgers wants to win badly, and after he hopes the opponents will feel good about themselves. I get the feeling Mathews is happiest if he totally dominates his opponent. I think Rodgers enjoys the mental aspect of the game more than the physical aspect. I think a lot of QBs do.

- Perhaps most importantly, among all starters, I think least important might be QB for the benefits of being "gritty" so long as your teammates do not perceive you as a wimp; and I do not think that is an issue for Rodgers.


As an aside, - I really do think Rodgers will be another concussion waiting to happen and his play will change because of it. I think his career will be one of those to which concussions will be tied as an overlying theme. Concussions will shorten his career, perhaps even dramatically. Part of my thinking on this stems from the first one, which seemed to come form a relatively innocent looking game situation. A QB sneak. While you can (and the Packers should) avoid QB sneaks in the future, there was little in that play that does not occur frequently. Then, the second concussion was fairly significant, with him experiencing headaches late in the week. I am concerned that he will experience more concussion from innocent hits like the first, but the symptoms will be increasingly worse. When it lingers for more than one missed game, it will be time to quit. I also think Rodgers will be analytical enough to make that decision, especially since he has other business interests that will substitute for football. He will not be one of those player who doesn't know what to do after football, and as a result he will be willing to leave sooner to pursue other interests.

[denverYooper]

Rodgers is a tough dude. But you're right that is style is more of a finesse type. That's okay though - it didn't hurt Montana or Young. Brady is finesse too, but he has Jordan-like competitiveness - something I don't see from Rodgers. But Bart Starr was laid back too, so this isn't something that necessarily hurts Rodgers.

Would you call the last Rodgers-led drive of the Atlanta game a "Jordan-like", gritty performance?

Another game that jumps out at me as "gritty" this year was the Chicago game. The TD pass to Finley inches above Urlacher's shoulder was as Jordan-esque as they come. Rodgers showed immense poise in that game and played the kind of short game that would seem to land him in the class of Brady as defined previously. It's too bad that Jones did not, because I had no question in my mind that #12 was going to march them down the field before that fumble.

I simply think of "gritty" in football as a characteristic of those guys who make big plays in big moments when they're needed, seemingly bending the game to their will--more along the lines of determination or Sisu, indomitable will. I choose to separate it from a person's general demeanor, so for me someone can be a real dick and still not be gritty. Likewise, they can be laid back in their media and day-to-day interactions a la Rodgers, but when the game is on the line they dig in and perform. Polamalu is a laid back guy off the field and not a dick but his play falls into that category that I consider gritty. Big Ben is gritty and a date raping jerk, etc.

[denverYooper]

- It appears the two of you focused on those two words I wrote about Rodgers, and ignored the balance of my rather lengthy post in which I explained what I think of as "gritty". I think I clearly explained why I think of Mathews as "gritty." "Mathews is the epitome of what I understand as "gritty". He likes to destroy people, tackles roughly and never stops."

People do that on the internet?

[Patler]

How the hell do you peg Rodgers as too fragile?

Rodgers is a tough dude. But you're right that is style is more of a finesse type. That's okay though - it didn't hurt Montana or Young. Brady is finesse too, but he has Jordan-like competitiveness - something I don't see from Rodgers. But Bart Starr was laid back too, so this isn't something that necessarily hurts Rodgers.

The Packers of the '60s have frequently said that the Bart Starr fans saw after the game was not the Bart Starr of the huddle; that he was as fierce a competitor as anyone on the team. Apparently, he was not so laid back in the huddle.