Offensive Line Coaches

[RashanGary]

If you look at this guys experience and compare it to Philbins, this guy is more qualified to be our offensive coordinator.


I'd love it if we made a change, but I'm becoming cynical when it comes to McCarthy. I have little to no hope that he will change the things he struggles in.

He'll still overcomplicate the offense and it will fall flat on it's face against defenses that disguise what they're doing. He'll keep Philbin, the one guy on our staff who's supposed to be an expert on the OL and is failing miserably. Capers has done more with less than McCarhty because he keeps it simple for his guys while makeing it hard for the offense. MM trys to make it hard on the defense by making it hard on the offense.

[pbmax]

If you look at this guys experience and compare it to Philbins, this guy is more qualified to be our offensive coordinator.


I'd love it if we made a change, but I'm becoming cynical when it comes to McCarthy. I have little to no hope that he will change the things he struggles in.

He'll still overcomplicate the offense and it will fall flat on it's face against defenses that disguise what they're doing. He'll keep Philbin, the one guy on our staff who's supposed to be an expert on the OL and is failing miserably. Capers has done more with less than McCarhty because he keeps it simple for his guys while makeing it hard for the offense. MM trys to make it hard on the defense by making it hard on the offense.

You do realize that the Packers, like most 2nd generation West Coast Offenses (Homgren, Shanahan, Reid, etc.), run option routes and that several times (including Drivers grab over the middle and Jennings second long bomb to the 1 yard line in the second half) were route adjustments to the defense the Bears ran, not the one they showed?

And I think you have oversold yourself on the idea that Rodgers get to choose the play at the LOS. Some plays have a run pass option and we saw just a couple of those versus the Bears and those are short, short throws. McCarthy also gave Rodgers the ability to get out of a bad play for the Dallas game last year. But he was not calling a ton of audibles yesterday.

Yes, as Aikman talked about the Bears would line up one way and then bail to a different coverage (Cover 2 mostly). Drivers big catch was against just such a coverage. The Packers do this too (often to Cover 3). But this is nothing new. And QBs must most post snap reads as well as pre snap reads. Sometimes, good defense stops a good offense. Especially when the good offense drops four balls and throws a completely unnecessary INT. Plus four drive killing penalties on your rookie RT, including two false starts at HOME.

Offense, heal thyself.

McCarthy has buried the needle and torched good defenses. Lovie just knows how to defend a West Coast O. It doesn't help that the run game was hibernating again.

[pbmax]

Yes it was. I'll get the play and post it. Harris was on the ground and Colledge was standing right over top of him. He had every opportunity to finish him off and let him right back into the play due to his passiveness and no second effort on the play. Granted he didn't know Rodgers had scrambled up, but that's no excuse IMO for him to just let his man get up off the ground and make the play when he was standing right over him the whole time.

Here it is. And I did not see Harris hit the turf after colliding with the other DT, Wells and Sitton. Colledge was still in front of him, but he did allow Harris to get back up. He still had a block on him, but he was in no position to stop Harris from vacating to the offense's right when Rodgers ran.

If he had laid on Harris, Tommie couldn't make that play, but I am not sure you want your O lineman on the ground while the play is still alive. My bet is Colledge should have re-engaged him harder after Harris got back to his feet. There was no reason for the DT to have the upper hand after hitting the turf.

http://www.nfl.com/videos/green-bay-packers/09000d5d81d69e6f/Bears-defense-sack-2-yd-loss

Stupid NFL video won't embed.

[pbmax]

If you look at this guys experience and compare it to Philbins, this guy is more qualified to be our offensive coordinator.

Philbin spent two years coaching TEs. This was the normal transition Holmgren used to teach line coaches the passing game so they could move up (eg. Andy Reid). Unless I missed something on Munchak's resume, he has only had the O line in his career. So he is not more qualified to be an O coordinator with no experience coaching the passing game.

And by the way, please read Munchak's CV carefully. He was in the front office for a year (94) then quality control and asst O line coach for 2 years (95-96) before being promoted. No other stops after he retired. Campen's experience up to the first five years in the Pro coaching ranks would be the greater of the two.

[Noodle]

Here it is. And I did not see Harris hit the turf after colliding with the other DT, Wells and Sitton. Colledge was still in front of him, but he did allow Harris to get back up. He still had a block on him, but he was in no position to stop Harris from vacating to the offense's right when Rodgers ran.

If he had laid on Harris, Tommie couldn't make that play, but I am not sure you want your O lineman on the ground while the play is still alive. My bet is Colledge should have re-engaged him harder after Harris got back to his feet. There was no reason for the DT to have the upper hand after hitting the turf..

At the time, I thought Colledge should have fallen on him, you see that all the time, but I wonder what some of our OL posters think (hear me ND?).

Man, ARod had both Driver to the left (probably impossible for him to see) and Jennings in the middle wide open. A little more effort from Colledge, and you have to think he sees Jennings for six.

[Patler]

Philbin spent two years coaching TEs. This was the normal transition Holmgren used to teach line coaches the passing game so they could move up (eg. Andy Reid). Unless I missed something on Munchak's resume, he has only had the O line in his career. So he is not more qualified to be an O coordinator with no experience coaching the passing game.

And by the way, please read Munchak's CV carefully. He was in the front office for a year (94) then quality control and asst O line coach for 2 years (95-96) before being promoted. No other stops after he retired. Campen's experience up to the first five years in the Pro coaching ranks would be the greater of the two.

Campen's experience is the greater of the two? Coaching high school, then two seasons as O-gopher coach and one year as O-line assistant?

[Patler]

Football Outsides Offensive Line Grade Ranks for the last five years:

              Run    Pass
2010 Packers  22nd   21st
     Titans   31st   11th 
2009 Packers   8th   30th
     Titans   21st    3rd
2008 Packers  17th   14th
     Titans   15th    3rd
2007 Packers  26th    1st
     Titans   11th   16th
2006 Packers  16th    3rd
     Titans   28th   11th
=========================
Avgs Packers  18th   14th
     Titans   21st    9th

Is the difference between the two lines the coach or the QB? Because if a vet like Favre (or Collins) was back there, I think the Packers O line would outpoint the Titans line. Look what Favre could do with the line in his last two years.

Or is it the back (Johnson, White, Henry, George) that makes the line look better (Jackson, Kuhn, Nance, Starks, Grant, old Ahman Green)?

I am in no position to judge, but I did look at 4-5 articles on best O-line coaches. Munchak was very high on every one of them. Campen didn't appear once.

[vince]

You do realize that the Packers, like most 2nd generation West Coast Offenses (Homgren, Shanahan, Reid, etc.), run option routes and that several times (including Drivers grab over the middle and Jennings second long bomb to the 1 yard line in the second half) were route adjustments to the defense the Bears ran, not the one they showed?

And I think you have oversold yourself on the idea that Rodgers get to choose the play at the LOS. Some plays have a run pass option and we saw just a couple of those versus the Bears and those are short, short throws. McCarthy also gave Rodgers the ability to get out of a bad play for the Dallas game last year. But he was not calling a ton of audibles yesterday.

Yes, as Aikman talked about the Bears would line up one way and then bail to a different coverage (Cover 2 mostly). Drivers big catch was against just such a coverage. The Packers do this too (often to Cover 3). But this is nothing new. And QBs must most post snap reads as well as pre snap reads. Sometimes, good defense stops a good offense. Especially when the good offense drops four balls and throws a completely unnecessary INT. Plus four drive killing penalties on your rookie RT, including two false starts at HOME.

Offense, heal thyself.

McCarthy has buried the needle and torched good defenses. Lovie just knows how to defend a West Coast O. It doesn't help that the run game was hibernating again.

Good posting. I too think JH is grossly oversimplifying how the offense is reading the defense and adjustments are being made to the point of inaccuracy.

Regarding the Colledge play, I see no reason whatsoever why Colledge couldn't/shouldn't have given Harris an aggressive punch when he was trying to get up and had no leverage rather than letting him up and make the play. Instead he pretty much did nothing but stand in what he thought was the lane between him and Rodgers.

[pbmax]

[/B]

Campen's experience is the greater of the two? Coaching high school, then two seasons as O-gopher coach and one year as O-line assistant?

Yes, Campen had Munchak's first job, Quality Control and Asst. Line Coach for two years. then was Asst. Line Coach for one. That's three pro years as an O line Assistant. Plus several years coaching high school.

[pbmax]

I am in no position to judge, but I did look at 4-5 articles on best O-line coaches. Munchak was very high on every one of them. Campen didn't appear once.

I have heard him mentioned before as well. One of the other top names is Howard Mudd (he may be retired now) from the Colts. And those Colt's lines had trouble run blocking after Edgerrin James wore out and got hurt. There is also no doubt they benefit from Manning's incredibly quick release. And when the line was thought to struggle after last year's Super Bowl, Bill Polian blamed the talent and dumped the starting LG. Which, so far this year, seems to have helped the Chiefs (where Ryan Lilja signed) more than the Colts.

So while I agree that the O line needs to be improved, its QB and RB (at least its RB when its not Grant) are not helping. And I am not sure how to apportion blame among the component parts. But I do know for a fact that McCarthy's less than total commitment to the run game (also a scheme that often has trouble in short yardage) and the absence of Grant makes this line look worse in run blocking that it did last year, when it had a very good year even in short yardage.

This doesn't even consider Colledge's pass blocking decline or Tauscher's injury and the rookie replacing him.

[RashanGary]

Philbin spent two years coaching TEs. This was the normal transition Holmgren used to teach line coaches the passing game so they could move up (eg. Andy Reid). Unless I missed something on Munchak's resume, he has only had the O line in his career. So he is not more qualified to be an O coordinator with no experience coaching the passing game.

And by the way, please read Munchak's CV carefully. He was in the front office for a year (94) then quality control and asst O line coach for 2 years (95-96) before being promoted. No other stops after he retired. Campen's experience up to the first five years in the Pro coaching ranks would be the greater of the two.

My gut is with MM having a passing background is going to benefit far more from having a running game expert as his OC. Philbin is supposed to be that and he sucks balls. If you think Philbin's passing game qualifications are the reason our passing game is having success, we're just going to have to agree to disagree. MM is not GM/HC. He has time to be invollved in the passing game, and is. He needs his OC to take over the run game and he isn't.

More qualified to be MM's OC. . . . I'll take the Titan guy. He's lead successful pro run games. We'll never get to see who's right because MM will never change, but despite your condescending tone, I think I'd have you burried.

And you said Chicago ran almost all cover 2. Funny. AR said they mixed it up far more than he thought they would and it was cover 1. They showed a lot of cover 2 presnap though, which is guaranteed to get Rodgers in a bad play and exactly the opposite of what you said Sunday. Like Sunday, I think the truth is exactly the opposite of what you're saying, despite the, so-sure-of-yourself tone.

AR was confused Sunday post snap and Philbin isn't doing his job with the run game. I'd call those two things facts but they don't quite fit the technical definition of the word so I'll just let common sense say it to anyone who has their mind open.

[RashanGary]

I don't care who was more qualified when they got the job. Who did better at it. Those football outsiders stats account for efficiency. Some teams run it over and over and over. Other teams are passing teams that run it only to keep defenses somwhat honest. The Titans run it over and over and over. Despite not being as efficient, they are more dominant.

Whatever the case, this guy might not be the guy, but our run game and OL suck and MM needs a run game/OL expert that Philbin is obviously not. Whether he has the qualifications or not, he's failing.

[vince]

Of course defenses try to disguise their coverages, but you can't honestly think that showing one coverage presnap and switching into another at the snap is "guaranteed" to get the offense into a bad play. Offenses and "plays" are designed to be adjusted on the fly both pre- and post-snap. There are a variety of presnap false counts and motions that help offenses read what defenses are trying to disguise and as PB said, there are a variety of post-snap route adjustments and reads that are driven by the actual defense that is being played - regardless of what they show pre-snap.

The Packers under McCarthy and Rodgers have produced top 10 passing offenses and total offenses every year so far. Some defenses are better at disguising their coverages than others, some defenses are faster and better than others, and everyone makes mistakes in reads and adjustments from time to time, but a strategy as simple as your suggesting being guaranteed to throw off Rodgers and the passing game just isn't close to reality. I'm sure you recognize this so I'm confused as to why you even suggest it.

[mmmdk]

On a slightly related note, is Shawn Slocum saving his job these past two weeks?

I think a wild card win for Packers come sunday would secure Slocum, as that's the only way Stubby can save his buddy. TT want results and Stubby needs to show more if Stubby wants to keep his group of coaches/buddies. Capers is a TT hire.

[bobblehead]

Alex Gibbs seems to turn every OL he touches to gold, then either leaves or is asked to leave. Must be a real dick, but we might be able to tolerate him for a season or 2 with all the young talent we have that needs shaping.