A Game in Flames by Sports Illustrated

[Guiness]

On the other hand, that was something that happened 20 years ago under a very different set of circumstances. With the salary cap now tied to revenues, there is a lot more transparency now than there was in 1992. Can there be games played with the numbers? Of course. Are they likely to be significant in view of the $9 billion pie? Probably not. A few million here or there isn't going to make a big difference.

If the player's lack of trust is based on a 20 year old situation, I think it is unfounded. If it is based on some things that have occured more recently I am more sympathetic.

I don't see what's changed.

It's tied to revenue. What is the revenue, outside of the bits that are well known, like the TV contract? How transparent is something like stadium attendance or concession revenue? How do you account for Snyder selling $25 standing room only tickets to lobbyists (he was making that money back elsewhere...)?

Nope. My feeling is that the situation hasn't changed much in 20 years. I think it's possibly the same or worse, and the last contract the owners offered leads me to believe it more. Everything I've seen, and the owner's negotiators are claiming it was a good deal, nearing or better than the one the owners opted out of. That tells me the players have called the owner's bluff, and the owners do NOT want to show their cards because it will be bad for them.

[RashanGary]

JH - Then why do you make it sound like the owners are bad guys because they want to work out the best deal possible for them? It works both ways, it always does.

They're not bad because they want a good deal. I didn't like their statements in the media trying to portray the players as unreasonable. I didn't like their deceiving tactic of offering partial info, having it audited and then telling the public all about it, like the players just didn't care to see the new, wonderful, helpful info after they agreed not to talk to the public about negotiations.

It seems to me they're more manipulative and I don't like that part of it.

The way they talk to the players in the meetings even.

I don't know if it's logical, I don't know if it's completely true or not, but I do know that I don't like the owners as much as teh players. The players strike me as regular every-guys. The owners strike me as borderline sociopathic white collar criminals. Maybe not criminals, but back stabbing, ruthless people who will fleece you and not care in the least bit that they manipulated you to do it.

[swede]

They're not bad because they want a good deal. I didn't like their statements in the media trying to portray the players as unreasonable. I didn't like their deceiving tactic of offering partial info, having it audited and then telling the public all about it, like the players just didn't care to see the new, wonderful, helpful info after they agreed not to talk to the public about negotiations.

It seems to me they're more manipulative and I don't like that part of it.

The way they talk to the players in the meetings even.

I don't know if it's logical, I don't know if it's completely true or not, but I do know that I don't like the owners as much as teh players. The players strike me as regular every-guys. The owners strike me as borderline sociopathic white collar criminals. Maybe not criminals, but back stabbing, ruthless people who will fleece you and not care in the least bit that they manipulated you to do it.

Wow.

To me the situation is like a teenager refusing to believe mom and dad can't afford to buy him a car without being allowed to look at his parents' bank accounts. Even if you let him look he'd have no patience for things such as contingency funds and retirement savings. He'd see enough dollars to get him a car and letting him look at the bank accounts would accomplish nothing.

This analogy has almost nothing to do with my having a teenage son.

[Guiness]

IF the books are opened for the players, I would hope the players don't do that unless something is really "bad" in the books. The players need to act like they want to get the deal done. Creating drama and running to the media by either side just creates hard feelings and makes the deal harder to sign.

Ya. Because NFL players are known for their spectacular displays of restraint and professionalism.

[Guiness]

There not being a season doesn't really hurt the current players. These guys have been paid at a minimum a couple hundred thousand dollars already in their career. They don't need the season to survive. They could probably go a couple years without football before the minimum wagers in the NFL would even start to feel the pinch. The owners on the other hand have a responsibility. A responsibility to pay people, like the coaches and the front office, the maintenance crew, and a whole slew of other bills like water, electricity and taxes. If they don't keep up revenue, people start loosing their jobs. Quickly. The players can moan about how unfair it is, but they have absolutely no problem screwing the maintenance guy out of 45,000 a YEAR job so he can up his profits a couple hundred thousand a game.

So don't give me this righteous indignation about how the big bad owners are screwing over the poor defenseless players. The players are playing the game just like the owners are. Both sides have to come to the table to talk. And it's not like the owners are without fault either. The last person to stop getting paid is going to be the owner. They *could* open their books. Whether or not they open them or not though is irrelevant. The owners have a right to make profit, just like the players have a right to not work unless they get paid what they think they deserve. I can not come into my job in order to pressure by boss to pay me more and so can they.

Every action has consequence. Neither the players nor the owners are immune from the consequences of their actions, no matter how they try to place the blame. Blame, after all, normally lies with those willing to place it.

I think that's way off Smeefers. It's the players who will feel the pinch first. They're accustomed to that paycheck, have comitments to meet as well, and have no other way of earning even 1/4 (1/10th?) of what they earn in the NFL. If they haven't squirled away some funds, they're screwed. Remember Barry Bonds petitioning to have his child support reduced during the baseball strike?

The owners are businessmen, have dealt with the ups and downs of the economy, budgeting, and have other revenue streams. They'll feel a pinch, but it won't be fatal.

[LP]

The players strike me as regular every-guys.

Sure they are. Just like that quarterback that wore the number 4 was/is.

[Smidgeon]

I don't know if it's logical, I don't know if it's completely true or not, but I do know that I don't like the owners as much as teh players. The players strike me as regular every-guys. The owners strike me as borderline sociopathic white collar criminals. Maybe not criminals, but back stabbing, ruthless people who will fleece you and not care in the least bit that they manipulated you to do it.

Something to consider from Vic today:

"While keeping an eye on this CBA negotiations, I have tried to analyze it with a “what would Vic say?” approach. While it is certainly about the money for both sides, I think it is also safe to say the majority of owners genuinely care about the players they employ, and for their well-being.

Vic: There is no doubt in my mind they care about their players. I can cite example after example. I can tell you about a defensive back from a school in Texas who came to the team I was covering legally blind in one eye. His career was not successful but prior to releasing him the team directed him to an eye-and-ear hospital that performed a procedure that restored his sight in that eye. When he was released, he had perfect vision. I can also tell you that some years ago, when I was doing the Jaguars team newspaper, I received a handwritten letter from Kansas City Chiefs owner Lamar Hunt, who had read a feature story I did on linebacker Lonnie Marts. Hunt cared enough to share his thoughts with me on Marts. These are warm-hearted men in what can often be a cold-hearted business."

[Smeefers]

I think that's way off Smeefers. It's the players who will feel the pinch first. They're accustomed to that paycheck, have comitments to meet as well, and have no other way of earning even 1/4 (1/10th?) of what they earn in the NFL. If they haven't squirled away some funds, they're screwed. Remember Barry Bonds petitioning to have his child support reduced during the baseball strike?

The owners are businessmen, have dealt with the ups and downs of the economy, budgeting, and have other revenue streams. They'll feel a pinch, but it won't be fatal.

If I don't squirrel away some funds and I lost my job I'd be screwed too. It's called living within your means. If I don't have a job and can't afford my house, guess what? I get an apartment. It's not like they haven't had a chance to prepare for this and get their finances in a row. Owners on the other hand have people depending on their wealth and income to support their families. An owner immediately feels the pinch because they are constantly spending and they have to spend because it's supporting other jobs. I'm not saying that the owners don't have a much much better cushion, what I'm saying is that when an owner stops spending money it affects entire careers of people. When a player stops spending money, maybe they don't go out and buy a new car this year. The players have no where near the expenses that the owners have.

If i quit working, I would have to severely limit my lifestyle.
If the owner of my company stopped getting revenue in, everyone in the company would have to severely limit their lifestyle. That is a much heavier burden to bear.

[RashanGary]

Vic: There is no doubt in my mind they care about their players. I can cite example after example. I can tell you about a defensive back from a school in Texas who came to the team I was covering legally blind in one eye. His career was not successful but prior to releasing him the team directed him to an eye-and-ear hospital that performed a procedure that restored his sight in that eye. When he was released, he had perfect vision. I can also tell you that some years ago, when I was doing the Jaguars team newspaper, I received a handwritten letter from Kansas City Chiefs owner Lamar Hunt, who had read a feature story I did on linebacker Lonnie Marts. Hunt cared enough to share his thoughts with me on Marts. These are warm-hearted men in what can often be a cold-hearted business."

This is a good point. I remember when teh Packers released Terrence Murphy and Jeremy Thompson. In both cases, they felt horrible to do it. I think Terrance Murphy came back as an intern a couple years ago and I know in both cases they had all of their medical stuff cleared up before they left.

I buy that 80% of the owners are great guys and want a deal to get worked out.

Maybe this isn't some big bad fight of bad (or dumb) men. Maybe this is a really tough negotiation where the players feel they're better off in litigation and the owners feel their better off bargaining. Maybe the chips just have to fall.

I still think not showing the books and leading the public to believe they tried to was bunk, but whatever. We'll see how it shakes out. Jerry Jones threat shows how weak they are. I don't think people in strong positions feel the need to threaten.

[Guiness]

If I don't squirrel away some funds and I lost my job I'd be screwed too. It's called living within your means. If I don't have a job and can't afford my house, guess what? I get an apartment. It's not like they haven't had a chance to prepare for this and get their finances in a row. Owners on the other hand have people depending on their wealth and income to support their families. An owner immediately feels the pinch because they are constantly spending and they have to spend because it's supporting other jobs. I'm not saying that the owners don't have a much much better cushion, what I'm saying is that when an owner stops spending money it affects entire careers of people. When a player stops spending money, maybe they don't go out and buy a new car this year. The players have no where near the expenses that the owners have.

If i quit working, I would have to severely limit my lifestyle.
If the owner of my company stopped getting revenue in, everyone in the company would have to severely limit their lifestyle. That is a much heavier burden to bear.

Outright expenses, no. But in a relative term, as in what %age of their income is 'spoken for' I think many players are hand to mouth.

[RashanGary]

I'm w/ guiness here, smeef. Owners are billionaires. They can last a year better than most players. Most players are not Peyton Manning and Tom Brady. Most players probably have a million or two in the bank account compared to a billion or two.

Knowing they can make a temporary deal while they litigate makes me feel much better. The owners are going to be pissed and threaten not to play, but in the end, 4.5 billion dollars for each side says they'll play. I feel more comfortable after reading this than I have since the beginning.

I think the owners are going to lose this court case. They'll agree to a one year patch with the players, the game will go on and the long term CBA will be worked out in court.

[Guiness]

I'm w/ guiness here, smeef. Owners are billionaires. They can last a year better than most players. Most players are not Peyton Manning and Tom Brady. Most players probably have a million or two in the bank account.

I don't think they've got a million or two. Have you seen this?

http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/story/14874371/more-alleged-creditors-suits-raise-bryant-tab-to-over-850k

Bryant, who is closer to the top then the bottom of the pay scale, is in debt. Remember when Grady Jackson had his furniture repossessed?

[Smeefers]

I don't think they've got a million or two. Have you seen this?

http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/story/14874371/more-alleged-creditors-suits-raise-bryant-tab-to-over-850k

Bryant, who is closer to the top then the bottom of the pay scale, is in debt. Remember when Grady Jackson had his furniture repossessed?

Just because a select few can't handle thier finances doesn't mean most of them can't. If they were responsible with thier money, they wouldn't get into those situations. They have nowhere to point the finger at but themselves and I refuse to feel sorry for people who waste fortunes.

JH, I think you're missing my point. The owners themselves will be fine for years and years, but what of the people on the business side who work under them? No season means no job. It's a lot harder on a man when he looses a 50 k a year job than when a player looses a 500k a year job.

[RashanGary]

Just because a select few can't handle thier finances doesn't mean most of them can't. If they were responsible with thier money, they wouldn't get into those situations. They have nowhere to point the finger at but themselves and I refuse to feel sorry for people who waste fortunes.

JH, I think you're missing my point. The owners themselves will be fine for years and years, but what of the people on the business side who work under them? No season means no job. It's a lot harder on a man when he looses a 50 k a year job than when a player looses a 500k a year job.

That probably is a factor for many of the owners. If they really do act out of that type of good will, I would hope the players act similarly and they come to a deal. The mistrust is deep though. I like the short term fix idea with court deciding the long term CBA. There are a handful of owners that I'd bet are crooked and the players lawyers have plenty of motivation to bring this to court. It might just have to get solved by a judge and that might not be a bad thing.

[prime311]

I think the safe assumption, which holds true for pretty much any business everywhere, is that employees will be paid as little as their bosses think they will take. Considering that there is almost no way that any reduction in employee compensation will result in savings passed on to joe schmo, I can't help but side with the players on this one.