A Hater's Take

[red]

i think you have to look at the video and ask if kuhn really did help cobb at all

cobb has both feet set and his hand down ready to head up field, kuhn then grabs him and almost spins him around, the wrong way. cobb then takes a split second to turn the right way before continuing on

kuhn might have hindered the run more then help it

[Joemailman]

I have a question about some of Rodgers's choices. Several times during the game, he'd get pressure and step up and keep looking down the field, while (it seemed to me) he'd have a running back - usually Starks, I think, but sometimes Grant - slipped out wide in the flat and seemingly wide open.

Why did Rodgers not go to that safety valve in some of those sticky situations? It looked like there was yards to be had by going that way, and Rodgers could have gotten rid of the ball at less risk of getting belted.

This is Rodgers' greatest weakness, in my opinion. He just doesn't like to dump the ball off to the back for 5-10 yards.

[Fritz]

I thought the opposite of Red - I thought Kuhn helped stabilize Cobb and then Kuhn pointed the kid in the right direction.

[KYPack]

i think you have to look at the video and ask if kuhn really did help cobb at all

cobb has both feet set and his hand down ready to head up field, kuhn then grabs him and almost spins him around, the wrong way. cobb then takes a split second to turn the right way before continuing on

kuhn might have hindered the run more then help it

He holds him up with his right hand and gives him a shove in the upfield direction with his left. You aren't supposed to touch the runner, it doesn't matter what direction you shove him, etc.

It's interference, but the fact that they never call it anymore was a big part of the "no call".

Can you imagine the shitstorm in Lambeau is they called that play back due to interferring with the runner ?

[Joemailman]

He holds him up with his right hand and gives him a shove in the upfield direction with his left. You aren't supposed to touch the runner, it doesn't matter what direction you shove him, etc.

It's interference, but the fact that they never call it anymore was a big part of the "no call".

Can you imagine the shitstorm in Lambeau is they called that play back due to interferring with the runner ?

Not sure it's true you can't touch the runner:

http://espn.go.com/blog/nfcnorth/pos...-a-little-help

Aaron Rodgers made a first down with less than five minutes left with a quarterback sneak against the 49ers. If you look at the replay, it appears that he was pushed from behind and assisted in gaining the first down by one of his running backs. I always thought that this was a penalty. Yes or no?
Quite definitively, the answer is no.

The NFL rulebook prohibits several actions designed to accelerate the progress of a ball carrier. But pushing from behind is not one of them. Fullback Quinn Johnson's shove was perfectly legal, and when you watch the replay, it looks like was probably necessary to secure a first down.

Here is what the rules say no offensive player can do:
(a) lift a runner to his feet or pull him in any direction at any time; or
(b) use interlocking interference, by grasping a teammate or by using his hands or arms to encircle the body of a teammate; or
(c) trip an opponent; or
(d) push or throw his body against a teammate to aid him in an attempt to obstruct an opponent or to recover a loose ball.
The rulebook even provides an example of the Johnson-Rodgers play as an example of what is legal:

Second and goal on B2. Runner A1 gets to the line of scrimmage and is stopped but A2, who is behind him, pushes him from behind and shoves him over the goal line. Ruling: Touchdown.

There’s nothing revelatory here, but I find that many people have mistaken assumptions about NFL rules and how they’re applied. Hopefully we’ll be able to continue mowing them down here on Dirty Laundry.

[KYPack]

Not sure it's true you can't touch the runner:

http://espn.go.com/blog/nfcnorth/post/_/id/6564/dirty-laundry-a-little-help

Aaron Rodgers made a first down with less than five minutes left with a quarterback sneak against the 49ers. If you look at the replay, it appears that he was pushed from behind and assisted in gaining the first down by one of his running backs. I always thought that this was a penalty. Yes or no?
Quite definitively, the answer is no.

The NFL rulebook prohibits several actions designed to accelerate the progress of a ball carrier. But pushing from behind is not one of them. Fullback Quinn Johnson's shove was perfectly legal, and when you watch the replay, it looks like was probably necessary to secure a first down.

Here is what the rules say no offensive player can do:
(a) lift a runner to his feet or pull him in any direction at any time; or
(b) use interlocking interference, by grasping a teammate or by using his hands or arms to encircle the body of a teammate; or
(c) trip an opponent; or
(d) push or throw his body against a teammate to aid him in an attempt to obstruct an opponent or to recover a loose ball.
The rulebook even provides an example of the Johnson-Rodgers play as an example of what is legal:

Second and goal on B2. Runner A1 gets to the line of scrimmage and is stopped but A2, who is behind him, pushes him from behind and shoves him over the goal line. Ruling: Touchdown.

There’s nothing revelatory here, but I find that many people have mistaken assumptions about NFL rules and how they’re applied. Hopefully we’ll be able to continue mowing them down here on Dirty Laundry.

Well I disagree with this "Dirty laundry" guy.

The shove from behind is illegal

Here is what the rules say no offensive player can do:
(a) lift a runner to his feet or pull him in any direction at any time; or

You can't help the runner. Shoving him forward is against the rules. I see this happen every once in ahwile and wonder why they don't call it. What Kuhn did was a violation, but they just don't flag those violations anymore.

[Lurker64]

A number of people (including myself) tweeted at former head of officiating Mike Pereira about assisting the runner on Cobb's kickoff touchdown. His response:

http://twitter.com/MikePereira/status/112334488733876224

Our crew brought up a good point. Assisting the runner on the kickoff return? No. Must lift him to his feet(from the ground) or pull him.

So I guess nothing illegal happened on that play between Kuhn and Cobb.

Well I disagree with this "Dirty laundry" guy.

The shove from behind is illegal

Here is what the rules say no offensive player can do:
(a) lift a runner to his feet or pull him in any direction at any time; or

You can't help the runner. Shoving him forward is against the rules. I see this happen every once in ahwile and wonder why they don't call it. What Kuhn did was a violation, but they just don't flag those violations anymore.

Actually, the shove from behind is totally legal.

Page 78 of the 2010 rulebook (under Rule 12, section 1, Article 5), they give this example (A.R. 12.2)

Second and goal on B2. Runner A1 gets to the line of scrimmage and is stopped but A2, who is behind him, pushes him from behind and shoves him over the goal line.
Ruling: Touchdown.

Pereira seems to imply that the illegal acts are "lifting a runner off of the ground" and "pulling a runner forward." Pushing from behind and stabilizing a runner who has lost his balance appear to be totally legal.

[King Friday]

I don't think Kuhn helped Cobb at all. Cobb was going to maintain his balance and keep heading up the field if Kuhn wasn't there. In fact, Cobb seems to be trying to run up field while Kuhn is still holding onto him. If you saw Cobb in college, you'll know that the kid has incredible body control...I find it highly unlikely he needed Kuhn to direct him where to go.

If anything, I think Kuhn's greatest impact was that he hindered the vision of the play for some Saints players who probably thought Cobb was tackled and let up on the play...giving Cobb a chance to escape downfield.

[rbaloha1]

I was wondering about this. Thanks for the clarification.

Agree about Wynn -- playing fast with a great motor. Very good rotation once Neal returns.

[mraynrand]

I'm with Mad, Nutz. It's a great read. Thanks for posting it. Forget the hater label. Cold, emotional logic is fine by me.

Ted Thompson killed James Tiberius Kirk:

[mraynrand]

He holds him up with his right hand and gives him a shove in the upfield direction with his left. You aren't supposed to touch the runner, it doesn't matter what direction you shove him, etc.

It's interference, but the fact that they never call it anymore was a big part of the "no call".

Can you imagine the shitstorm in Lambeau is they called that play back due to interferring with the runner ?

It's still a judgment call, and in the bang-bang moment it doesn't look much like he's helping him - it looks as much as though he's getting out of the way. But I can see how you could view it the other way, depending on your angle. It could have been called. and you're right, the crowd would have gone ape-shit.

[pbmax]

It's still a judgment call, and in the bang-bang moment it doesn't look much like he's helping him - it looks as much as though he's getting out of the way. But I can see how you could view it the other way, depending on your angle. It could have been called. and you're right, the crowd would have gone ape-shit.

If Lurk's quotes from Perriera are correct, then it was about as close as possible, in retrospect. Because of Kuhn's position, he was almost pulling him forward. And while he didn't lift him off the ground, he used the exact same leverage and motion to help him keep off the ground. Kuhn really threaded a bureaucratic needle there.

[pbmax]

Isn't there a play that used to be run in football (way, way back, like Teddy Roosevelt as the precursor to the NCAA back) where teammates would pull a back through or around a line of scrimmage?

I seem to recall reading about such a play, or maybe it was from Rugby or other alternate forms of this game. Because of the convoluted way the rules are written, it almost seems like they are trying to prevent something specific, rather than ban assistance altogether.

Someone (vince? Tar?) had some great information on the early days of football and its precursors. Maybe someone can confirm or debunk my memory.

[Harlan Huckleby]

I saw that play in the movie "Flubber"

[mraynrand]

If Lurk's quotes from Perriera are correct, then it was about as close as possible, in retrospect. Because of Kuhn's position, he was almost pulling him forward. And while he didn't lift him off the ground, he used the exact same leverage and motion to help him keep off the ground. Kuhn really threaded a bureaucratic needle there.

I agree. It's just that my first reaction was to think that Cobb was going down and Kuhn was trying to prevent Cobb and his tacklers from rolling Kuhn's ankles. Then I realize Cobb put his hand down and is still going. I wonder if the officials had the same reaction.