Let him walk

[HarveyWallbangers]

The moment I realized Finley wasn't as good as I thought was when I went to youtube and flipped on Tony Gonzalez. Sure, he was a 1,000 yard per year TE for over a decade, but I went there expecting to find a similar athlete with a similar game to Finley. What I saw, even in a young Gonzalez, was a guy who ran amazing routes. He made the Finley type circus catches, but he also had safety and corners hips turned all around and created separation on top of using his elite physical talent.

Finley is an elite talent. I'm not so sure he's an elite football player. I think he's trying plenty hard. I just wonder if he has a feel for what's going on out there, for how he's being approached, for how he needs to adjust. . . . . Gonzalez knew how to set up defenders, knew how to coast through the zone, leaving a larger time window. Finley just runs his routes, seems to be caught off guard when a ball is thrown away from coverage, instead of right where Finley was running. . . Jennings, Nelson and Driver seem like they know the ball will be lead away from the defender and are more ready to adjust.

It's just little things about his game. He's just not living up. Jennings puts up the numbers year after year after year, even when he didn't have Finley or a running game to take pressure off him.

Actually, Jennings' numbers went down dramatically when Finley was doing his thing at the end of 2009 and early in 2010. There are only so many balls to go around. I know Finley has a lot of drops, but on a team without Jennings, Nelson, and even Driver, Jones, and Cobb, I think Finley's numbers would be up there with the elite. It's hard for a team to have three 1000 yard receivers--even one that passes for close to 5000 yards. He's having a bad season for him, but he's helping the offense. That's all I really care about. We have already scored over 460 points and there are still three games left. Completely shattering the team record and up there with the best offenses of all-time.

[Patler]

You do realize contracts like Grant, Clifton, Driver, Pickett, and possibly Collins among others will be off the books by then right? Unlike Wolf TT doesn't go after FAs and builds his team thru the draft. Reason Wolf had to let players go was because of FA signings, TT is much better at handling then cap then Wolf was.

What? There are expiring contracts? Who would have thought?

Seriously, though, how is that any different from any other year? It isn't. There are always some that are expiring. However, when a team gains great success relying on a lot of players in their first contracts, one of the problems they face is that in a short time they have more starters looking for new contracts than they have old codgers being put to pasture.

Your distinction of Wolf signing FAs from other teams and TT not doing so really makes little difference. TT signs a lot of his own FAs. It makes no difference to the cap where the FA comes from, only what you pay him. Both Wolf and TT gained success with strong drafts. Wolf was challenged in trying to keep all of the young players who made a difference, and TT will be too, eventually.

TT has shown great willingness to sign players in the top 10-15 range, and with some frequency for the better players in the top 5-10 for the position. Their forays into the top 1-5 have been infrequent and reserved for the truly elite performers on their team. Being a little stingy is how he affords more players. Whether they can reach a long-term deal or not will depend on Finley's expectations.

What you call discounting or ignoring I call overreacting by some fans, that was you who made such a big deal about him showing up to camp weighing less right?

Big deal about him weighing less? No, not at all. However, I did find it particularly odd that he would chose to do something (lose weight) and openly admit that he expected his coaches wouldn't be happy about it. I found it odd that he would intentionally go against the teams wishes. There were several instances of the coaches remarking that they expected Finley could bulk up effectively, and that doing so would help him.

I'm glad you mentioned that, because I had forgotten it. A discussion on another board has focused on why Finley seems less physical on pass routes. LBs seem to be able to disrupt his routes easier this year, and he doesn't muscle for position as well on contested balls this year. I think the interception last week is a good example. He should have been able to muscle himself into better position for that ball. I will go back to that site and remind everyone about Finley's desire to lighten up.

Finley will be back next year, the new calculation of the franchise tag cost for a TE is too cheap not to take advantage of it in 2012. I'm not so confident that the Packers can (or should) finalize a longer-term top five type deal with him, even if he is a top 5 TE talent.

[George Cumby]

I'm not so confident that the Packers can (or should) finalize a longer-term top five type deal with him, even if he is a top 5 TE talent.

The "can" in this statement revolves around cap space, correct? I presume your doubt about this revolves around other big-time players that need to be signed to big-time contracts?

The "should" can be interpreted in (at least) two ways. Are you concerned about his long-term prospects upon receiving a big contract or about the opportunity-cost of signing him to a big contract?

[Brandon494]

Don't worry about Patler, the dude worries too much. The guy thought that Crosby and Kuhn werent going to be resigned last season either evn though I said thu would be locks to be resigned....just like Finley.

[Brandon494]

BTW that INT had nothing to do with Finley weighting less, it was a under thrown ball by Rodgers in which the defender just got lucky as shit. Also during the offseason when you where complaining about him coming to camp lighter you were stating how it would hurt his blocking which seems not to be the case at all. He had one game where he struggled against the Giants in his route running, the main thing with Finley this season has been his drops.

[hoosier]

BTW that INT had nothing to do with Finley weighting less, it was a under thrown ball by Rodgers in which the defender just got lucky as shit. Also during the offseason when you where complaining about him coming to camp lighter you were stating how it would hurt his blocking which seems not to be the case at all. He had one game where he struggled against the Giants in his route running, the main thing with Finley this season has been his drops.

Just to be fair, Rodgers wasn't the only one at fault on that end zone INT. Finley needs to become a defensive back and knock it out of the interceptor's hands while they're both going for the ball. Or else be sure there is enough contact that the officials have to call PI. The defender was face guarding him without turning to play the ball; I don't know which is more surprising--that the pass was intercepted or that PI wasn't called.

[MadtownPacker]

BTW that INT had nothing to do with Finley weighting less, it was a under thrown ball by Rodgers in which the defender just got lucky as shit. Also during the offseason when you where complaining about him coming to camp lighter you were stating how it would hurt his blocking which seems not to be the case at all. He had one game where he struggled against the Giants in his route running, the main thing with Finley this season has been his drops.

What if the loss of soft fat tissue on his palms made them hard?

[MadtownPacker]

Just to be fair, Rodgers wasn't the only one at fault on that end zone INT. Finley needs to become a defensive back and knock it out of the interceptor's hands while they're both going for the ball. Or else be sure there is enough contact that the officials have to call PI. The defender was face guarding him without turning to play the ball; I don't know which is more surprising--that the pass was intercepted or that PI wasn't called.

I think this is fair to say. While 88 wasnt in perfect spot to make the catch he did have his arms tangled up with the DB. I definitely thought he could have done more to defend it.

Regardless, the football Gods now have me believing we are all about to start YOTTOing.

[Patler]

The "can" in this statement revolves around cap space, correct? I presume your doubt about this revolves around other big-time players that need to be signed to big-time contracts?

The "should" can be interpreted in (at least) two ways. Are you concerned about his long-term prospects upon receiving a big contract or about the opportunity-cost of signing him to a big contract?

The "can" is more in terms of whether the team and player can ever agree to terms. Even if the cap space is there, if a player wants to get the top contract for his position, and the team is willing to pay only in the range of the top 4 or 5 contracts, he can't be signed. I have no idea what Finley will expect for terms, but if he wants a record contract, I doubt the Packers would go there. Incidentally, I would not be shocked if Finley found a team willing to pay that to him, but I will be surprised if it is the Packers that agree to a record contract with him. I have no idea what Finley and his agent have in mind, but I could easily see an agent convincing Finley to go for a record contract. The Packers probably can use the franchise tag to leverage them off that position, at least in 2012.

The "can" does not refer to an ability to work a contract into the salary cap. I don't foresee a problem in that for at least a couple years, unless the Packers feel obligated to improve the contracts of some over-performers (Rodgers, Matthews, etc.) I think the Packers are in a decent cap situation, but not one that gives them total flexibility. After all, the Packers found merit in reworking Collins' contract before the start of the season to gain some cap space.

The "should" was applicable only to the long term impact to the salary cap of a top 5 contract for a TE. Even if it is manageable for 2012 or 2013, it will impact what they can do in any other year while it remains in effect. I refer back to Bob Harlan's comments about his own tenure as the Packers contract guy. He said the most difficult concept to accept and practice was that giving in even a little and paying a player more than you should can mushroom into problems later on, both in raising the expectations of players yet to be signed and in restricting the teams ability to sign players in the future even at a cost they thought was fair. It could occur that the Packers and Finley will agree that he deserves to have a contract in the top 3, but the Packers decide they shouldn't do it because there are more important places to spend their money.

Incidentally, I totally agree with the comments made about the value of a TE in the passing game. I disagree that it needs to be a unique TE talent. While there will necessarily be a drop off, I think much of the advantages are there so long as you have a decent TE, with decent speed and decent hands. I also think many undervalue what a good blocking TE brings to an offense, especially if he is consistent. Bubba Franks was never a unique talent as a receiver, but in his younger years he was at least a decent receiver and a real force in the endzone going wherever he wanted to go. It became very predictable, in close throw it to Bubba, but it always seemed to work. As a blocker, for a while he was top notch. I don't remember if it was the OC or one of the assistants who one time remarked about the flexibility Franks gave them, because he was one of the few TEs that could be assigned to block a DE alone and would get the job done all the time.

[mraynrand]

Just to be fair, Rodgers wasn't the only one at fault on that end zone INT. Finley needs to become a defensive back and knock it out of the interceptor's hands while they're both going for the ball. Or else be sure there is enough contact that the officials have to call PI. The defender was face guarding him without turning to play the ball; I don't know which is more surprising--that the pass was intercepted or that PI wasn't called.

That was pretty close to dual possession

[mraynrand]

There are always some that are expiring.

we want you to stick around as long as possible. Don't 'walk'

[gbgary]

Just to be fair, Rodgers wasn't the only one at fault on that end zone INT. Finley needs to become a defensive back and knock it out of the interceptor's hands while they're both going for the ball. Or else be sure there is enough contact that the officials have to call PI. The defender was face guarding him without turning to play the ball; I don't know which is more surprising--that the pass was intercepted or that PI wasn't called.

fin was trying to make a play. reached over and caught the ball off the defender's back. he got it and when he's bringing it in the defender hits it and it falls into the defender's hands. it was a great effort from both. maybe if the pass was higher a better grip on it could have been achieved. game of inches.

[Smidgeon]

Maybe he just needs lasik.

It worked for Javon...

[pbmax]

When Finley screws up a route, misses a block or drops an easily catchable pass, watch Rodgers stare him down when he comes back to the huddle. I have made this a focal point because Rodgers sets the tone and he clearly signals to me, that Finley is working sloppy. And he has said as much in his post games this season, but with the dignity and respect he alway displays. Rodgers is challenging Finley. At the same time, he distributes him the ball, and the opportunities.

I am so convinced of this. And i think TT and M3 will lend their ears to what rodgers has to say about it, despite their policy on recruiting and running the team. Rodgers' football maturity is so obvious that they would be madmen not to take his opinion into consideration.

I wonder what Finley is like with a QB not named Rodgers, Manning, Brees or Brady. Particularly if his route running is as described by KY in that earlier post.

You are on big guy. I will forget watching Newhouse and Sitton/EDS and watch Finley each play and Rogers after each play. Someone (maybe Nutz?) also mentioned that Finley was being redirected by Rodgers a lot this season, as if he didn't know where to line up. I have been meaning to watch that for a while, as I thought Rodgers was just changing the strength of the formation (or a protection adjustment).

I do agree that Finley's lacks Jennings route precision and does not seem to have a Jordy Nelson mind meld with Rodgers. But he can play pitch and catch with his QB better than anyone else on the team. Jones isn't even his equal in competing with DBs for space.

Speaking of Sitton, I hope he sits another week and comes back for the Bears/Lions with another week to rehab.

[pbmax]

KY, even Rodgers has publicly called him out this season for not spending enough time in the study room. I think he relies way too much on his God given gifts still to be the elite TE he SHOULD be. Even in his last interview, Rodgers downgraded Finley's status from "the best TE in the game" (last season) to "one of the best".

I know, I am dissecting straws here, but it occured to me that the Franchise QB expects more. I might be completely off base, but Rodgers chooses his words rather carefully.

Was this in reference to the Bears game?