WILL the REAL TRAMON WILLIAMS PLEASE STEP UP ?

[Bretsky]

Or was last year's season a one hit wonder; this is a key question to the SB run

We've already debated about this plenty in PR but this was a telling article

http://www.jsonline.com/sports/packers/packers-coverage-plan-needs-upgrade-fb3mkoo-136789238.html

[bobblehead]

A cornerback is only as good as his pass rush.....which we don't have much of this year. For those that annointed Clay the second coming when I was saying he was actually inferior to Aaron Kampman as a pass rusher....wtf happened??

[Tarlam!]

I am with the Collins is missing believers.

[mraynrand]

For those that annointed Clay the second coming when I was saying he was actually inferior to Aaron Kampman as a pass rusher....wtf happened??

Triple teaming is pretty effective at preventing sacks. So is running everything to the opposite side. Where is the rest of your pass rush coming from? I thought you were the guy who wasn't stuck on stats?

[Tarlam!]

For those that annointed Clay the second coming when I was saying he was actually inferior to Aaron Kampman as a pass rusher....wtf happened??

Surely you're just baiting. You aren't serious, are you? If you are being serious, I am forced to ask what games you are watching. They aren't the games I'm watching. Mathews is having a helluva season, despite double and triple teams.

[ND72]

Here's my 2 cents...#1, we miss a guy like cullen jenkins, badly. #2, most blitz's haven't really worked this year. #3, we are blitzing more, which puts our DB's on islands. #4, Tramon has disappointed this year. He was as close to shut down last year as we could have, but this year...eh...I'm not down on him, just frustrated. But I think it is a mix of not having a solid pass rush, missing collins, and having a defense that hasn't had a true identity this year.

[pbmax]

Here's my 2 cents...#1, we miss a guy like cullen jenkins, badly. #2, most blitz's haven't really worked this year. #3, we are blitzing more, which puts our DB's on islands. #4, Tramon has disappointed this year. He was as close to shut down last year as we could have, but this year...eh...I'm not down on him, just frustrated. But I think it is a mix of not having a solid pass rush, missing collins, and having a defense that hasn't had a true identity this year.

What he said. Plus the sudden run defense deficit esp. in the nickel package has not helped force opponents into bad down and distance as often as last year.

But I do think Bobble has a point. As a DE beating an OT 1 on 1, Kampman may have been superior to Matthews. Most of Matthews sacks come on action and assignments where he is not one on one with an OT. But Matthews is asked to do so much more than Kampman was and he is better at all of the other OLB assignments, including stunts.

[Upnorth]

Regarding Williams it is a combination of pass rush and collins. Collins allowed him confidence to stick closer knowing if he made a mistake Collins was there to take care of it. Our pass rush takes longer to get home and requires more commitment this year than last allowing qb's more time and comfort. Good qb's will take advantage of that everytime.

Regarding Clay he is still having a big impact on the pass rush, just in a different way. He is either limiting the field of play when the oppsing offence roles away, or disrupting through pressures. A lot of our picks this year came from collapsing pockets or deflections. Who was doing the work quite often? When you combine pressures, hits and sacks Clay messures up fairly well, not the best but he faces double teams regularly. Kampman would often get doubled as well, but really just rushed the passer or runner. As PB pointed out Clay does more, and when he plays away from the rush his two blockers are frozen for a moment. That is the great part of Clay in a 3-4 defence, his ability to make the offense plan for him.

I would like to state for the record I am not trying to down play Kampman, he was an amazing player in the 4-3 whom I think very highly of.

[bobblehead]

Triple teaming is pretty effective at preventing sacks. So is running everything to the opposite side. Where is the rest of your pass rush coming from? I thought you were the guy who wasn't stuck on stats?

I am not stuck on meaningless stats. How many times you get/sack/hit a QB is meaningful. Clay is consistently stonewalled by the RT alone, I see it every game. He has many talents and is a great all around player...but until he matches Kamps best season in getting to the QB I am standing by my position.

PS...I agree, we need more pass rush from everywhere, and Clay is a great OLB...but he isn't a pass rusher in the mold of the guys who actually...you know....sack the qb 15 times in a season.

[Tarlam!]

Clay is consistently stonewalled by the RT alone, I see it every game.

Now I know we watch different games.

[Upnorth]

I am not stuck on meaningless stats. How many times you get/sack/hit a QB is meaningful. Clay is consistently stonewalled by the RT alone, I see it every game. He has many talents and is a great all around player...but until he matches Kamps best season in getting to the QB I am standing by my position.

PS...I agree, we need more pass rush from everywhere, and Clay is a great OLB...but he isn't a pass rusher in the mold of the guys who actually...you know....sack the qb 15 times in a season.

Because thats more vauable than a guy who has averaged in the regular season 10 sacks, 2 forced fumbles, 6 pass defenced, 1.3 ints and .7 tds a year is not as good as 15 sacks.

Cherry picking Kampman's best 3 years gets you 12 sack average, .4 pass defence and 1.3 forced fumbles.

[Upnorth]

Just looking at peppers and hali, two excellent pass rushers and you get about 12 ish average for the top 3 years.
Allen blows away the compition with just over 15.5 sacks, but he is arguably the best pass rusher in the league.

[Tarlam!]

Hali, Peppers and Allen all play for teams that did not make the tournament......

[Upnorth]

Hali, Peppers and Allen all play for teams that did not make the tournament......

I was going to include Ware for just that reason as well, but did not want to be so obvious. Very perceptive Tarlam!

[Smidgeon]

I am not stuck on meaningless stats. How many times you get/sack/hit a QB is meaningful. Clay is consistently stonewalled by the RT alone, I see it every game. He has many talents and is a great all around player...but until he matches Kamps best season in getting to the QB I am standing by my position.

PS...I agree, we need more pass rush from everywhere, and Clay is a great OLB...but he isn't a pass rusher in the mold of the guys who actually...you know....sack the qb 15 times in a season.

Matthews finished second in the league in QB pressures this year. Sounds to me like that's pretty meaningful.