Hargrove is locked up

[Patler]

Maybe I'm wrong but, didn't Bulaga and Newhouse have an entire offseason to study and get acclimated to the pro game before they had to take the field? Didn't Sherrod kinda get screwed a little by that lockout thingee? How much time did he actually have in before that first preseason game? I think he deserves another season before he gets labeled a bust.

I don't think anyone is labeling him a bust yet, some just have concerns based on how he played last year.

The lack of camp has been mentioned time and time again for all the young players, but I think the impact is more for players going into their second years (like Shields in 2011) than for rookies, and unfortunately Sherrod will miss all the off-season stuff this year, too.

[HarveyWallbangers]

Bottom line is that Finley is a difference maker no matter what his numbers or how many balls he drops. Yes, he had a big problem with drops in 2011--although I'd be surprised if that lasts (same way I felt about Jordy after his problem with drops in 2010). However, he opens up the offense for other players. Not a lot of players do that. None on the roster and probably few, if any, in the draft (although I haven't researched it enough to know what the exact number what be).

[woodbuck27]

This guy brings great insight to the forum. Finley only had the best season ever by a Green Bay TE and has yet to reach his full potential.

Whoa! On Rutnstrut. This is a new poster here and we need all the new blood we can get. (-:

I hope this post will help you Brandon494. I mean no disrespect nor want to start a war.

Why not rebut the post instead of insulting,undermining or attacking the poster!? In other words if you must ...attack the post never attack the poster. I mean it's not like your even in a heated debate with this poster Packer fan. It's like the fella is walking down your street and you decide to shoot bee bee's at him. Geeeessh !

Is that post one that gave you 'a particular pleasure' or satisfaction? If you disagree with that poster why not better just surround him with proof that the post isn't creditable. For example....

It's done like this:

" Finley only had the best season ever by a Green Bay TE..." Brandon494

Sorry but your mistaken !

The Green Bay Packers have had some solid TE's. Fellas named Ron Kramer, Ed West,Keith Jackson and Marv Fleming come to mind.


Ever hear of a fella named Paul Coffman? He was a Green Bay Packer TE for 8 seasons (1978-85). Many Packer fans will say that Paul Coffman was their pick as OUR best ever TE. Stat's wise support that as 'a fact'.

Jermichael Finley's best season was last year (2011) in a four year career with 767 yards and 8 TD's. He started 13 games and had 55 receptions (13.9 yard avg.) with a long of 41 yards

In 1983 Mr Paul Coffman started all 16 games. He had 54 receptions, 814 yards receiving (15.4 yard avg.) a long of 81 yards and a walloping 11 TD's. Paul Coffman exceeded Jermichael's 2011 season stat's in terms of total yards, avg. yards per catch, His long was 41 yards longer at 81 yards. Paul Coffman scored 3 more TD's than Jermichael Finley did last season (2011).

Paul Coffman demonstrated consistency as well. He followed up that season in 1984-85 starting 29 games with combined totals of 1228 total yards receiving ( approx. 13.4 yard avg ) a long of 44 yards and 15 TD's.

Jermichael Finley may develop in terms of being assignment sure; but he's not there yet and there are questiions about TT's decision to retain his number one TE. Many Packer fans didn't want him back in the Green and Gold. You'll re-call all the controversy regarding this Packer.

Is Jermichael Finley the protypical ideal TE? Is Jermichael Finley credited as being a solid blocker? Isn't that part of the skill set desired for a Pro Bowl TE? Has Jermichael Finley ever made a Pro Bowl?

Check out Mr. Bubba Franks as a Packer TE. Bubba scored 31 TDs to rank second behind Paul Coffman in team record books at the position. Bubba Franks 27 TD's from 2001-04 only trailed Tony Gonzales. How does that compare to Mr. J. Finley?

Jermichael Finley has produced 15 TD's in four season career to date (2008-11).

[woodbuck27]

If anyone expects Hargrove to be a gem, they will be very disappointed. All I hope for and expect is some incremental improvement over whoever he replaces. But Hargrove by himself will not turn around the defense. There are bigger questions, starting with the following:

Who is B.J. Raji, the dominating player of the latter part of 2010, or the OK, but nothing special player he was during most of 2011? This is a big issue for the DL, and I'm not real hopeful that the answer is the one we want. If Raji was simply playing over his head in 2010 (and I think he may have), there is a lot more work to do in fixing the defense.

Who is Tramon Williams, the shutdown corner of 2010, or the OK, but nothing special player he was during most of 2011? It's easy to blame this on his early injury, but so much of being a top CB is mental attitude, and Williams showed a lack of confidence in his play at times last year. Again, maybe the injury, but if he has allowed doubt to creep into his play.......

Who is Sam Shields, the raw rookie brimming with potential that he was in 2010, or the confused and undisciplined player he looked to be for much of 2010? At one point I thought he was coming around in mid-season, but when his timid tackling got him replaced by Bush in some nickel situations for the playoff game, I came to realize that the problem is deeper. This player needs an off-season of work in the worst way.

How much does Charles Woodson have left in his tank? This one concerns me a little too, Actually, more than a little.

Questions can be raised about the comparative, play 2010 vs. 2011, for almost every player on defense. I started a thread during the season suggesting that what we may have seen in 2010 was almost every defender having the best season of their career. It happens at times, a group of athletes "click" in the same season, and can never come close to it again. I think there was a lot of evidence for that with the Packers of 2010.

With that in mind, I am more interested in TT brining in 4, 5, 6 players to have roles on defense and perform those roles better than the players they replace.

Your points of question in this post are solid and relevant to this discussion. Nice post.

[woodbuck27]

I'm with you... but see my post above.

I would give the same pass to all of those guys... I put it all on TT. He knew his front seven was weak going into last year's draft, and he still went OT, WR, RB in the first 3 rounds - and while I like Cobb and Green, Sherrod is already looking like a bust, and the defense got no help at all.

So while TT restocked on offense, he failed to stock anything on defense, and it is showing. There's a decent core of players there, but it's got to be disheartening for them every time they take the field knowing they don't have enough talent up front to generate any pressure. It's hard to hold the real players accountable, when the reality is that the Packers are really only fielding 6 or 7 NFL calibur defenders on any given snap.

There are two questions here RE;Our 'D'.

a) True talent 'by position' as a starting unit on 'D'. Realistically how talented are our starting 'Eleven' ? How does that affect our team concerning core talent and ability? or...

How that talent acts to undermine or not; cohesiveness for our core of defenders ?

b) When the starters lack true talent how can we deal with adversity, ie injury .... when at every position we lack depth?

[Pugger]

Bottom line is that Finley is a difference maker no matter what his numbers or how many balls he drops. Yes, he had a big problem with drops in 2011--although I'd be surprised if that lasts (same way I felt about Jordy after his problem with drops in 2010). However, he opens up the offense for other players. Not a lot of players do that. None on the roster and probably few, if any, in the draft (although I haven't researched it enough to know what the exact number what be).

James Jones had drop issues too.

[woodbuck27]

I think you have hit upon the truth here. Some of us are forgetting these young kids didn't get the benefit of OTAs and mini-camps before TC started last summer.

NOT related to the above post by Pugger.

First..... please let me first state this as a TRUTH ...a fact you can believe. I swear this 'as the TRUTH' on my parents grave.

I do NOT hate Ted Thompson. Please do NOT even imagine I could be so low.

Any poster here that would even imagine that; is 'lying to you RE: ME

Expressed differently... that poster is...totally out to lunch in terms of who/what I am.

It sure looks like this to me:

That poster is aiming to undermine my body of work as a poster here. Only trying to totally discredit me as a poster here. That poster is a poster that should be carefully observed for at least being a trouble maker and as a bottom line creating destructive mischief.

You 'only' give that poster power if you buy into that posters mischief. I never have and what you chose to believe is on you. Good luck. (-:

************************************************** *********

Now RE: Puggers post:

I hope that this is the key point in terms of the dramatic falloff of our pass 'D'.

TT's has set his plan and that included confidence in his TE and replacing his Center on 'O'. People here love TT resigning TE J. M. pbmax backs up that signing reporting that the Free Agent market didn't offer his value at $7.5 M$. I'm not sure without checking and I look at our depth on offense as strong and maybe? TT might have let JM walk and his questionable consistency and 'the fact' he's not, as yet assignment sure and having(4-5 TE's on our roster. As reasons he might have been let go.

Instead Jermichael Finley is our TE. I hope he grows....improves.

Ted Thompson brings back a valued ST player in CB/ST Jarrett Bush. A TC 'pusher' in DE Anthony Hargrove ( that signing is loaded with ?why's? as it's closelt examined). I mean to just see TT sign anyone is EXCITING but upon closer examination. mmmm

Why can't I get excited or even reassured that that signing by Ted Thompson was clearly astute today?

We don't get any difference maker on 'D' in terms of a servicable 3 down pass rusher.

We took a hard loss to the NY Giants coming off a 15-1 regular season. It was obviuous to us as fans that our team came out flat against the GIANTS who went on to be Super Bowl Champs. We have a solid 'O'; the best last season in the NFL during our regular season. We have to believe that MM and his staff will groom our OL to protect our QB. That 'O' has good depth. That 'O' has arguably the BEST QB in the NFL. Can that 'O' overcome a lousy 'D' that has nowhere to go but up? We can hope so.

I believe that Ted Thompson will better ensure our future having **11 (12 ?) draft picks. We've overall a good team that will need to work hard to get into the playoffs. Other NFL teams will improve and maybe? gain on us.

There's plenty to be happy about and alot to look forward to as Packer fans.

GO PACKERS !

** 7 rounds plus 4 Compensatory picks = 11 picks....How do we get 12 picks?

[LP]

I don't think anyone is labeling him a bust yet,

and while I like Cobb and Green, Sherrod is already looking like a bust

Not quite, but close. I don't know how much physical activity he will get this offseason, but he will at least get the classroom stuff, which should give him a better grasp on what he's supposed to do on whatever play or protection is called.

[Fritz]

I really think people are overreacting to Sherrod's rookie year. I thought he looked pretty good at RT there before he got hurt. They'll coach 'em up.

Now if TT can draft a center to develop in the next two years, and if Ray Dominguez and Sampson Genus develop in the off-season and in training camp, then things will be looking good.

[pbmax]

Woodbuck, even when you have a point you get distracted. Rutnstrut is an insult poster who only pops up to deliver an easy insult and casual racism (Finley drops passes and will now be a malingerer! He's black after all, we all know they are lazy once they get paid!) and, presumably, watch the carnage. He is effective enough that he almost seems like a plant from the forum to guarantee an additional 10 posts on any thread just to denounce him. You and Brandon should look at his history of posts and see what kind of quality information and thinking he brings to the table. He should be on everyone's ignore list. In my mind, he is the definition of a troll.

Notice the best of the posters (Bretsky, Harv and Patler) didn't even blink at him. He might be on their ignore list or they simply exercised some self control.

Coffman 1983 and Finley 2011 (or 2009 with a playoff game) is a great debate and I wish more had been written about it than about rutnstrut. But if you wish to be the best you can be and contribute the most to the forum, you cannot express an opinion (even backed with stats) and declare an opinion as fact. Stats are facts, they do not solely act to prove another fact, especially as an answer to a question as nebulous as best ever.

smuggler posted that Pro Football Reference ranks Finley's '11 season higher than Coffman's '83 (AV 12 versus 10). A good question is why would that be? As woodbuck states, a superficial glance at the stat line makes Coffman's season look pretty amazing.

And since Brandon posted that he had the best season ever, its irrelevant whether the Packers have had better TEs over their career.

[pbmax]

I'm pretty sure that Newhouse looked much better at RT when he played there than at LT last season.

I agree that Newhouse could be fantastic there. Its a good group of four if one wasn't currently injured and another recovering from a surgery. Unfortunately, both of those are LTs.

Even though they might make it through this camp with this group, they need another LT prospect to replace Clifton after this year. And they might need that body sooner since Sherrod will miss another offseason. On the plus side, he will get to learn the playbook again with a full off season of meetings and will hopefully be able to concentrate on one position.

[woodbuck27]

http://www.jsonline.com/sports/packers/defensive-energy-boost-lo4ps3j-145254405.html

Packers aim for defensive energy boost

"We'd like to increase the competition throughout the entire team, especially so on defense." - Packers head coach Mike McCarthy.

By Tom Silverstein of the Journal Sentinel
March 30, 2012

[woodbuck27]

http://www.jsonline.com/sports/packers/packers-hope-hargrove-can-help-defense-lo4ppo1-145036145.html

Packers hope Hargrove can help defense

Defensive end Anthony Hargrove (top) played last season with the Seattle Seahawks, finishing with 18 tackles and three sacks while playing 27.1% of the snaps.

By Tyler Dunne of the Journal Sentinel
March 29, 2012


" "He's definitely a high-energy guy," Red Bryant said. "His motor is always running. He's definitely going to be a guy you can count on to make a big play throughout the course of the game and throughout the course of the season. He has a high energy, a high motor. Put in the right situation, it's definitely going to pay off." Red Bryant (Seattle)

"He was a phenomenal teammate, a great guy," Bryant said. "He's definitely a team-oriented guy and a great leader. He did a great job for us last year. We're definitely going to miss him around the locker room. We truly did enjoy him last year, especially myself." " ... Red Bryant


**He should offer the Packers' defensive front something it sorely lacks - speed.

** He may thrive in a specific, pass-rushing role.

** Hargrove was the top interior rusher on a Super Bowl champion. Finishing with 42 tackles, five sacks and three fumble recoveries. He should help Green Bay as one of the two down linemen nickel package. And, as of now, Hargrove is probably the defense's best option to start in base.

** He was an integral part of a Saints defense that forced 47 turnovers (including playoffs) en route to a Super Bowl triumph over Indianapolis.

** Anthony Hargrove is one player in the thick of the Saints' bounty scandal. It's unknown whether he'll be suspended.

** Hargrove's career nearly caved. He violated the league's substance abuse policy twice, leading to a season-long suspension in 2008.
One more violation and he's out of the NFL.

[smuggler]

smuggler posted that Pro Football Reference ranks Finley's '11 season higher than Coffman's '83 (AV 12 versus 10). A good question is why would that be? As woodbuck states, a superficial glance at the stat line makes Coffman's season look pretty amazing.

The AV system is far from definitive, however, it does put Finley with a fine group. AV takes a lot of factors into account in order to compare players across eras, and while unbiased, it is certainly flawed.

[MJZiggy]

Woodbuck, you can't use the pictures either. They're copyrighted and belong to Getty Images. You have to pay to use them.