TT acknowledges dysfunction of front seven

[3irty1]

For me, Walden and Wynn have worn out their welcome. Zombo and Jones can fight it out for backup OLB. I like Francois more than the three guys we had at ROLB, so hopefully Francois can make the team as backup OLB with Smith and Manning at backup ILB.

I still think C.J. Wilson can be a good backup DE.

There will be some interesting battles.

DL Pickett, Raji, Worthy, Hargrove with Wilson, Muir, Daniels, Wynn, Guy fighting for probably two spots. We still need a Howard Green type backup at NT. I wonder if we look to bring him back now.

OLB Matthews and Perry with So'oto, Jones, Zombo, Lattimore, and Walden fighting for two or three spots.

ILB Bishop, Hawk, and Smith with Manning and Francois fighting for one spot.

My bet is on a DL of Raji, Pickett, Worthy, Hargrove, Daniels, Muir, and Wynn. That gives 2 run stuffers (Pickett, Muir), 3 pass-rushing specialists (Hargrove, Daniels, Wynn), and 2 that can do both (Worthy, Raji). Pickett and probably also Muir can spell Raji at NT, I don't think we need another Howard Green type. Worthy and Muir should lock that up.

With the LB we have a couple of guys with versatility too. Matthews, Perry, Bishop, Hawk, Smith, Manning, So'oto, Walden, and Jones is my guess. Manning, Walden, and Jones can all play any of the positions. Jones gets a lean over some others for special teams play and the skill set of being decent in coverage.

[wist43]

Wist, our defence sucked in 2011. If it can return to one of the best in the league like 2010 or 2009 can you say our defense is good?

Sure, I know good defense when I see it... I love watching good defense - which is why I make an effort to watch the dominant 3-4 teams when they're on prime time, i.e. Pitt, Balt, etc. Being a Packer fan, and living in WI, good defense simply isn't much of a priority. It's all about offense here, and try to plug the holes on defense as you go.

12 years ago or so I watched an interview with Brian Billick and he talked about how in Balt they arrived at the decisions, structured the defense, selected the players, and tweaked their scheme to play to the strengths of their players. Hearing their strategy and logic behind it, certainly broadened my understanding of how to build a defense.

Baltimore has been a great defensive team for many years... they're fun to watch. Yes, 13-10 football is fun to watch

[HarveyWallbangers]

Wynn hasn't worn out his welcome for me at all. I thought he stepped his game up big for us last year. He'll be a TOUGH out in camp.

Wynn started out strong and Wilson started slow in training camp--which was surprising to me. However, by the end of the year Wilson was the better player. I think he has more upside than Wynn.

[Patler]

If you want to try to make the argument that the 2011 Packers front seven was any better than an average HS team, then by all means, sing that tune my friend.

Unfortunately for you PollyAnna's, TT saw the writing on the wall and seems intent on running the previous set of pretenders out of town on a rail... It seems next to impossible for you guys to admit that our defense absolutely sucked last year; so impossible in fact, that you can't even acknowledge that Ted did exactly what I thought he should do, and is running the old guard out of town, and bringing in fresh troops.

Really, it's not hard to do when you focus... look in the mirror and say it s-l-o-w-l-y, "o-u-r/d-e-f-e-n-s-e/s-u-p-e-r/s-u-c-k-e-d"...

Say it slowly so you can learn to pronounce the words correctly... once you say it a few times, it becomes much easier. Just takes some practice.

When the hell did I EVER say anything about the D-line being good, average or anything but poor last year? I've been one of only a small number who have been unwilling to give Raji a "pass" because he played a lot of snaps in 2011. I have said he regressed, and I have expressed concern that 2010 was the anomaly, because 2011 looked a lot like his rookie season.

I also wrote early in the 2011 season that I was concerned that the 2010 defensive result was from all too many of the defensive players having "career years" at the same time, something not likely to be repeated, ever, with the same players. I said Raji, Hawk, Williams, Shields, Peprah and others might never again be as good as they were in 2010. I was told at that time that I was foolish, it was still very early in the season, everyone had "reasons" for their decline in performance (injuries and the like) and by the end of the year the defense would right itself.

My comment to YOU was simply that your analysis is flawed. Picking 4 front seven players in 6 defensive selections shows absolutely no increased concern about the front seven over the rest of the defense because about four of every six defensive players is a front seven guy anyway. My ONLY comment to you was about your "4 of 6" argument. I absolutely said nothing about the defense being good in 2011.

Your arguments about the front seven are not supported by the "4 of 6" argument. Focus on something better, like the overall defense and "6 of 8" in the current draft, or the fact that TT found it necessary to use two picks for one so often, to get defensive players better than those who would fall to him at his regular picks.

I find it interesting that TT has now traded up 6 times in GB, all six times to get a player for the defense.

[HarveyWallbangers]

My bet is on a DL of Raji, Pickett, Worthy, Hargrove, Daniels, Muir, and Wynn. That gives 2 run stuffers (Pickett, Muir), 3 pass-rushing specialists (Hargrove, Daniels, Wynn), and 2 that can do both (Worthy, Raji). Pickett and probably also Muir can spell Raji at NT, I don't think we need another Howard Green type. Worthy and Muir should lock that up.

With the LB we have a couple of guys with versatility too. Matthews, Perry, Bishop, Hawk, Smith, Manning, So'oto, Walden, and Jones is my guess. Manning, Walden, and Jones can all play any of the positions. Jones gets a lean over some others for special teams play and the skill set of being decent in coverage.

My early guess

DL - Raji, Pickett, Worthy, Hargrove. I think it's Daniels vs. Wynn for inside pass rusher in subpackages. If Daniels shows anything, I think he gets the nod. I think it's Neal vs. Wilson for a backup DE spot. That's a crapshoot. I don't know what will happen with Neal. I think they'll keep Wilson at least until Neal gets back. Muir is around in case others disappoint or we get injuries. Since they have more decent players with the addition of Hargrove, Muir, Worthy, and Daniels they may keep one more than they usually do. If a position is strong, Thompson has shown he'll go with a bit of an unbalanced roster.

LB - Matthews, Perry, Bishop, Hawk, Smith. Manning vs. Francois for one backup ILB spot. Francois showed a bit of potential last year though. That's a bit of a tossup. Maybe they keep 5 ILBs if Manning or Francois show the ability to play spot duty at OLB. Then, it's Walden, Jones, Zombo, So'oto, and Lattimore fighting for probably a couple of spots. I couldn't even guess how that will end up. I'd like to see So'oto improve and get a spot. Then, whomever has the best camp amongst the rest.

[pbmax]

Four of the guys I mentioned play 80%+ of the snaps and guys like C.J. Wilson, D.J. Smith, and Mike Neal (if he's healthy) are good enough to play 20% of the snaps. Most teams don't have all starter caliber backups as part of their rotation. I think you guys are making it overly complicated. If Perry and Worthy are as good as we are hoping they are and Hargrove doesn't get suspended for too long, then I think the front seven is going to be good. I worry about a backup for Pickett and Raji since Green is gone. Other than that, the front seven looks good IF Perry and Worthy are as good as we all hope they will be.

This is the part of the equation that deserves to be watched. With the exception of Perry and maybe Worthy, none of those draft picks will be starting and I would be stunned if Worthy started any in base 3-4. wist is talking about lowing up the entire defense, but that is not what this draft was about. It was about pass rush.

And McCarthy has talked about using sub packages less.

If M3 is not blowing smoke, the pass rush heavy draft will be fighting for a small number of roster spots.

Think about a 25 man D.

*Raji
*Pickett
*Neal
*Wilson
*Green
*Wynn
Guy
Worthy
Daniels
Hargrove
Muir
Jonny Jones?

Worthy could easily take Wilson's spot and only gives up an inch, plus he is heavier and better. But Daniels gives up three inches to Wynn. Wynn struggled to hold up at DE as it was in base, Daniels will be hard pressed to do it. NT will be interesting. Pickett can backup Raji, obviously, but Raji rarely comes off the field since he can pressure. If Raji does not have to take every snap in nickel, he will be better rested than previous years and Pickett as backup could work. But if one of them is unavailable, this new line gets very very small. There would be a temptation to keep Green. But then to keep Hargrove, you would have to carry seven.

*Matthews
*Bishop
*Hawk
*Walden
*Jones
*Zombo
*So'oto
*Smith
*Francois
*Lattimore
Perry
Manning

Carrying a smaller DL will make ILBs busier, but if that DLine is better, they may be happier for it. Two of So'oto, Walden and Zombo appear gone for Manning and Perry. Jones sticks for ST and the ability to play OLB without being a catastrophe in any one phase except pass rush, which is what the new guys are for. Manning is not as big as Hawk or Bishop and he and Smith would make for a tiny backup unit.


*Woodson
*Williams
*Burnett
*Shields
*Peprah
House
Bush
Levine
Jennings
McMillian
Hayward

I think Hayward is a shot across Shields bow for playing time, though Hayward's scouting report makes him sound more capable in the slot. House was hurt for too much of last year to be certain, but he might be the future as well outside and he is the only obvious candidate out there. Bush does everything but start and he almost got the nod over Shields late last year. The Packer will have to decide whether to keep 4 safeties (incl McMillian) and drop one of last year's developmentals (Jennings, Levine) or go heavy at corner to keep the more talented players. That would require two safeties from last year to be gone (assuming McMillian sticks) and would leave Wood, Williams, Shields, House, Hayward and Bush. If they keep 10, the a true NT backup might be the casualty.

Did this off the top of my head. I am sure there are errors of roster and counting. Feel free to correct.

[Bretsky]

Am I imagining this or has the coaching staff made metion of House needing to mature....or hinted at it ?

I thought part of the reason he fell last year is he has some screws loose

[HarveyWallbangers]

Raji didn't play as well in 2011 as 2010, and I don't give him a pass for the number of snaps he played last year, but I don't think he was nearly as bad as some have made him out to be. He was a rookie in 2009 playing a new position. He started off slow, but he was a good player by the end of rookie year. He was very good in 2010. I think the people around him made him look worse last year. He wasn't a world beater, but the lack of a good pass rushing DE or ROLB had a similar affect on him that it did on Matthews. You can double team two guys. You need to have a third and fourth pass rusher (like the Giants) to maximize the skills of Raji and Matthews. I expect Raji to rebound big-time in 2011.

[wist43]

Wynn hasn't worn out his welcome for me at all. I thought he stepped his game up big for us last year. He'll be a TOUGH out in camp.

Anyways, wist you're completely exaggerating. This defense is a season removed from being championship caliber. The defense decayed last year due to a regression in individual efforts plus nasty injuries to Collins, Neal, and Williams. I considered OLB the biggest need last season and it wasn't addressed but there was at least strong promise from Walden, Zombo, and Jones at times. The only reason you're seeing this as an admonition of disfunction is because you were 180 degrees wrong on your outrageous claim that Ted doesn't care about the defense and would spend his top picks on offense. Everyone else knew this draft would be defense heavy as the majority of picks in an offensively heavy draft wouldn't even make the team.

There was not a "stong promise" from Walden, Zombo, and Jones. I still had a smidgeon of hope for Walden, but I could tell even during our SB run that it was a mirage. All of those guys are short-term plugs that TT tried to convince himself were legit NFL starters. Way, way off base... not even close. TT majorly fucked up, realized it, and set about fixing it in this draft.

My skepticism toward TT before this draft was due entirely to his track record in drafting, and the fact that the Packers really don't value defense or pass rush very much. TT definitely put that criticism to bed, and I'm glad he did.

10 out of 12 picks to defense... just a regular draft for TT?? Trading up and down all over the place to get guys that fill specific package rolls - that's all I was asking... was that so hard??

If I'm "exaggerating"; then TT is too... b/c he did everything I thought he needed to do. It remains to be seen if TT actually fixed a lot of defensive shortcomings, but at least he addressed the issues - seems I'm the only PR happy about that, lol...

This was a statement draft by TT, and the statement was, "our defense sucks"........ Maybe if we had His Lordness deliver the draft pick announcements, then all you guys would feel warmier, fuzzier, hopier, changier??

[HarveyWallbangers]

Am I imagining this or has the coaching staff made metion of House needing to mature....or hinted at it ?

I thought part of the reason he fell last year is he has some screws loose

I think people just thought he was raw. That he needed to get physically stronger and improve in his technique. His rookie season shouldn't be a surprise to anybody. I'm not willing to write him off yet.

[pbmax]

Wynn started out strong and Wilson started slow in training camp--which was surprising to me. However, by the end of the year Wilson was the better player. I think he has more upside than Wynn.

I might be mistaken, but I thought I saw a lot more Wynn at the end of the season in base and nickel than Wilson. Memory fail?

[Bretsky]

If he makes the team. Seems to me he fills pretty much the same role as Hargrove. Provides an inside pass rush. When you only keep probably 6 DL, you don't have room for a lot of specialists. I'm not sure both Daniels and Hargrove can make the team. Hargrove could get suspended though.

I'd be pretty surprised of both Hargrove and Daniels don't make it

Hargrove is superior IMO to the junk we put out there last year....aka....Green, Wynn, Wilson. Daniels should have a better future than that riff raff.

[Bretsky]

I think people just thought he was raw. That he needed to get physically stronger and improve in his technique. His rookie season shouldn't be a surprise to anybody. I'm not willing to write him off yet.

I'm not willing to write him off at all either; I have good hopes for him and was happy when we let some of the junk like Pat Lee go...that should allow him to step up

[pbmax]

My skepticism toward TT before this draft was due entirely to his track record in drafting, and the fact that the Packers really don't value defense or pass rush very much.

The first contention is wrong, its as evenly distributed attention as it could get. The second contention has definite merit. And I think the natural trouble teams have in getting pass rushers normally was magnified by Thompson trying to get larger at DE for the base D since Capers came on board.

10 out of 12 picks to defense... just a regular draft for TT?? {pb snip}

This was a statement draft by TT, and the statement was, "our defense sucks"..

So the draft of 2011 was an announcement that the Offense sucked?

[HarveyWallbangers]

I might be mistaken, but I thought I saw a lot more Wynn at the end of the season in base and nickel than Wilson. Memory fail?

I could have the memory fail, but I thought Wynn got the nod early because I remember being surprised that Wilson didn't take that step up after a decent rookie season. Then, by the end of the year Wilson was playing more.