TT acknowledges dysfunction of front seven

[Lurker64]

Trading up and down all over the place to get guys that fill specific package rolls - that's all I was asking... was that so hard??

I think a major difference between this year and previous years is that trading up was really cheap.

By comparison, in 2010 when we traded up for Morgan Burnett we received 71 for 86 and 122. In 2012 when we traded up for Casey Hawyard we received 62 for 90 and 163. We got a better pick (62 vs. 71) and a bigger trade up (28 spots vs. 15 spots) for a lower price (pick #163 versus pick #122). If you look at the chart, that's a really lopsided trade.

The other trade we made with New England was pretty lopsided by the chart too we got 163 for 197, 224, and 235. By the chart, the Patriots practically gave that pick away (27.2 for 13.6+3+1.9).

Even the trade with the Eagles was lopsided by the chart. #123 should be enough to turn #59 into #54, but the Eagles lost that trade by the equivalent value of a fifth round pick.

So there's something going on here. Maybe TT was trading with these teams based on past or future considerations (not picks), maybe the way teams value draft picks is changing dramatically, or maybe TT was just taking advantage of a buyer's market in which teams very much wanted to trade down in order to get any additional kind of asset, but these sorts of deals weren't necessarily available in previous years.

Compare, for example, the trade TT wrought in 2006 when the Pats traded up for Chad Jackson. New England got 36 for 52 and 75. By the chart, we gave 540 for 380+215. This year, when Philly traded from 51 for 59 and 123 they gave 390 for 310 +49.

[Cheesehead Craig]

Unless we got turnovers last season we couldn't stop anybody. The real reason we were 15-1 is because we have the best player in the league playing at the most valuable position in today's pass happy league. Last season the Gmen sucked until their D linemen got heathy and started to raise havoc on the gridiron. It didn't help that we let Eli sit in the pocket with enough time to read War and Peace while he surveyed our porous defense in that painful playoff game a few short months ago.

You severely overrate Eli Manning if you think he can comprehend War and Peace

[Cheesehead Craig]

I think TT thought that after seeing the defense in 2009 and 2010 it didn't need much meddling. We had good players and the defense was allowing fewer than 19ppg, among the leaders in turnovers and also in sacks. So it would make sense to not meddle with what was working. Then 2011 came and we all saw that there were indeed big holes in depth and that some players simply weren't playing up to their previous levels. I won't go so far as saying the defense was dysfunctional and an abomination like wist, but that side of the ball clearly needed some upgrades. I agree with Patler that it was a perfect storm of sorts that players had outstanding seasons at the same time in 2010. Walden's big game vs Chicago, Sam Shields playing at an All-Pro level in the playoffs, Zombo actually producing, etc. Thing is, it seemed like many players were ascending instead of peaking which is what was found out.

TT certainly acknowledged that we needed some help on defense and I think the mostly defensive draft is indicative of that so I think wist has a point there. Again, I won't go so far as to say that it was a terrible unit that needs to have a major overhaul, but it certainly needed some help. I really love the potential of the guys picked though.

[wist43]

The other problem with that 99 draft was that unless you count turning Vinson into Ahman Green as a 3 draft pick victory, it didn't work. As good as McKenzie was, he couldn't stop Moss. And Sherman still had to get Harris to man the other position.

I'm not saying they were good trades, or good picks... my point is the amount of resources thrown at the problem.

Hell, for all I know, Perry, Worthy, Daniels, and Manning are all terrible choices. The point is that TT now, and Wolfe back when, recognized that the SS Packer was full of holes; and on draft day spared little expense in trying to address the problem.

Wolfe was quite candid about what he did, and why he did it. For what TT did this past WE? I think that speaks for itself.

I look at it as TT continuing what he started in 2009 when he began to reshape a 4-3 team into 3-4 team. TT got off to a good start with Raji and Matthews; but then only threw 1 high draft pick (Neal) at the transition in the next 2 years. Every other guy on the front seven was either a holdover from the 4-3, or low end spitballs. Pickett carried over and is adequate; TT couldn't wait to run Jenkins out of town; and the fact that Neal has been a bust to date certainly doesn't help; but you put all of that in a mixing bowl, whip it together and what you get is the 2012 Packer front seven - an undermanned, underpowered, miscast, dysfunctional mess.

Obviously last season got TT's attention... and he did what Wolfe did back in '99. He went all in with his resources, moved around, and used his first 10 choices as currency for a new defense - a defense that now has some personnel that actually fit the scheme.

Like I said, I have no idea if these players can play or not; what I'm applauding is recognition of the problem, marshalling resources to attack the problem, and then executing a plan that fundamentally addressed the problem.

Let's all hope these moves work out... we have a kickass offense, it would be a shame to see it go to waste b/c the Packers couldn't get their shit together on defense. This draft gives me hope that we are moving in the right direction though; so for me, all is well in Packerland today

[Upnorth]

I'm not saying they were good trades, or good picks... my point is the amount of resources thrown at the problem.

Hell, for all I know, Perry, Worthy, Daniels, and Manning are all terrible choices. The point is that TT now, and Wolfe back when, recognized that the SS Packer was full of holes; and on draft day spared little expense in trying to address the problem.

Wolfe was quite candid about what he did, and why he did it. For what TT did this past WE? I think that speaks for itself.

I look at it as TT continuing what he started in 2009 when he began to reshape a 4-3 team into 3-4 team. TT got off to a good start with Raji and Matthews; but then only threw 1 high draft pick (Neal) at the transition in the next 2 years. Every other guy on the front seven was either a holdover from the 4-3, or low end spitballs. Pickett carried over and is adequate; TT couldn't wait to run Jenkins out of town; and the fact that Neal has been a bust to date certainly doesn't help; but you put all of that in a mixing bowl, whip it together and what you get is the 2012 Packer front seven - an undermanned, underpowered, miscast, dysfunctional mess.

Obviously last season got TT's attention... and he did what Wolfe did back in '99. He went all in with his resources, moved around, and used his first 10 choices as currency for a new defense - a defense that now has some personnel that actually fit the scheme.

Like I said, I have no idea if these players can play or not; what I'm applauding is recognition of the problem, marshalling resources to attack the problem, and then executing a plan that fundamentally addressed the problem.

Let's all hope these moves work out... we have a kickass offense, it would be a shame to see it go to waste b/c the Packers couldn't get their shit together on defense. This draft gives me hope that we are moving in the right direction though; so for me, all is well in Packerland today

So both Wist and Bretsky are loving our draft. Why am I worried now...

[MJZiggy]

So both Wist and Bretsky are loving our draft. Why am I worried now...

I don't know, but it seems you have good reason...

[Scott Campbell]

Hell, for all I know, Perry, Worthy, Daniels, and Manning are all terrible choices.

Now THERE is the Wist we all know and love. Glad to see you're feeling better.

[Bretsky]

I don't know, but it seems you have good reason...

Historically............the picks I really loved were Brent Fullwood, Eddie Lee Ivory, and AJ Hawk

[pbmax]

I look at it as TT continuing what he started in 2009 when he began to reshape a 4-3 team into 3-4 team. TT got off to a good start with Raji and Matthews; but then only threw 1 high draft pick (Neal) at the transition in the next 2 years. Every other guy on the front seven was either a holdover from the 4-3, or low end spitballs. Pickett carried over and is adequate; TT couldn't wait to run Jenkins out of town; and the fact that Neal has been a bust to date certainly doesn't help; but you put all of that in a mixing bowl, whip it together and what you get is the 2012 Packer front seven - an undermanned, underpowered, miscast, dysfunctional mess.

While I agree he needed a transfusion of talent for the pass rush, many of his picks seem to be a more natural fit for a 4-3 than a 3-4.

Perry is the closest, but he already had a change of direction question and at 270, that isn't going to get better or an OLB. If he gets back to 260, I can seem him fitting nicely. Worthy is not an ideal physical specimen for DE, but he has enough talent to make it work, if that talent is applied on a regular basis. I think there is a chance he will flourish in time at 5 tech, but his body and body of work seem to say 4-3 DT.

Manning is small for ILB and Daniels would only seem suited for nickel. If you thought Capers was using mirrors and gimmicks in 2010, those will continue with the sub packages with Manning and Daniels if they play.

Honestly, this draft was exciting and confusing. I suspect that only two of these guys see much of the field and as such, the overall picture will not change as much as it seems. And Thompson might be back to looking for physical specimens in 2012.

And Wolf's draft was intended to stop Moss. It never worked. He would have been better off with two different 1st and 2nd round picks. Trying to address a problem and failing is worse than ignoring it. It costs extra picks to fail.

[wist43]

While I agree he needed a transfusion of talent for the pass rush, many of his picks seem to be a more natural fit for a 4-3 than a 3-4.

Perry is the closest, but he already had a change of direction question and at 270, that isn't going to get better or an OLB. If he gets back to 260, I can seem him fitting nicely. Worthy is not an ideal physical specimen for DE, but he has enough talent to make it work, if that talent is applied on a regular basis. I think there is a chance he will flourish in time at 5 tech, but his body and body of work seem to say 4-3 DT.

Manning is small for ILB and Daniels would only seem suited for nickel. If you thought Capers was using mirrors and gimmicks in 2010, those will continue with the sub packages with Manning and Daniels if they play.

Honestly, this draft was exciting and confusing. I suspect that only two of these guys see much of the field and as such, the overall picture will not change as much as it seems. And Thompson might be back to looking for physical specimens in 2012.

And Wolf's draft was intended to stop Moss. It never worked. He would have been better off with two different 1st and 2nd round picks. Trying to address a problem and failing is worse than ignoring it. It costs extra picks to fail.

I really haven't had the time to research the players adequately, but my general perception at this point, based on watching a reasonable amount of game footage from last year on utube, and reading thru scouting reports I've found online - I have to say I'm encouraged.

Couple of projections there - Perry and Worthy. The first thing that jumped out to me about Perry, seeing him as an OLB, was that his change of direction skills were average at best. He has a very quick first step, and his hand use is okay, but not great. From the little I watched, he seemed to take good angles in pursuit, and had good football awareness. Think he would be most effective playing somewhere in the 255-265 range. Think he'll be fine, but opponents will certainly be looking to match him up with a back in coverage.

Worthy is not much of a projection positionally as his size and skill set can be put to use in any scheme. If he plays to his potential (the big IF), he could command double teams inside, and he can certainly anchor and eat up snaps at DE in base. The question mark on him is, of course, will he play?? It's scary to read quotes from a guy defending why he takes plays off. Get him in a good locker room environment, coach him up, and hopefully the light goes on for the kid. Talent wise?? He has the potential to be pro-bowl (RIP) player.

Daniels fits in subpackages as a pass rusher, and can play snaps at DE in some base packages. I really like his potential as an inside pass rusher. He is very explosive out of his stance and delivers a good shock with his hands. Reminds me a bigger John Randle; teams will have to account for him. I'm very hopeful that Daniels can infuse some life into our pass rush.

All of those players fit nicely into an attacking 3-4.

[woodbuck27]

1) Nick Perry (OLB)
2) Jerel Worthy (DT)
2) Casey Hayward (CB)
4) Mike Daniels (nickel pass rush, base DE rotation)
4) Jerron McMillian (S)
5) Terrell Manning (OLB)
7) Andrew Datko (OT)
7) BJ Coleman (QB)

First 6 picks all on defense, and 4 of the 6 front seven players. The 2012 GBP draft is the closest any of us will ever come to seeing TT admit that he has a completely dead area of his roster. To his credit, TT went all-in on fixing the problem; he manuevered around for value, and came out of this draft with one of the most critical portions of any teams roster addressed, if not fixed.

Our front seven has been dysfunctional for many years, going back to before the switch to the 3-4; at which time TT said we'd transition body type over the next few drafts; but that didn't happen.

For my money, TT took one half way decent swing at the problem in '09 when he took Raji and Matthews, but he has paid scant attention to body type and sub package specialties since changing fronts; and the results have been obviously dismal.

Perry will be counted on to bring heat off the edge; Worthy will be counted on as a rotational guy with the flexibility to stop-gap inside; Daniels can also rotate outside, but his biggest contribution should be felt on pass rush; and Manning is the type of projection/transitional guy with upside that you're looking to develop behind the starters.

Even if these guys don't turn out to be world-beaters, I still like the approach.

Kuddo's to Ted for acknowledging that his front seven, as it existed, was completely ineffective and dysfunctional. TT saw it, and set about fixing it. Capers at least has some material to work with now.

Love the Daniels pick... explosive 280-290 lb pass rusher?? Welcome to the wonderful world of 3-4 sub-packages - and more importantly, welcome to Green Bay.

Nice draft!!

and the winner is...drum roll.............

wist43

[Harlan Huckleby]

While I agree he needed a transfusion of talent for the pass rush, many of his picks seem to be a more natural fit for a 4-3 than a 3-4.

Perry is the closest, but he already had a change of direction question and at 270, that isn't going to get better or an OLB. If he gets back to 260, I can seem him fitting nicely. Worthy is not an ideal physical specimen for DE, but he has enough talent to make it work, if that talent is applied on a regular basis. I think there is a chance he will flourish in time at 5 tech, but his body and body of work seem to say 4-3 DT.

Manning is small for ILB and Daniels would only seem suited for nickel.

I agree that it is a little confusing to see how these pieces fit. But TT saw them workout in person, so they must be closer physical fits than scouting reports indicate.

[Lurker64]

While I agree he needed a transfusion of talent for the pass rush, many of his picks seem to be a more natural fit for a 4-3 than a 3-4.

I think as time goes on what the modern "3-4" teams run will be virtually incomprehensible from the perspective of the classical Bum Phillips or Chuck Fairbanks models of the 3-4 defense. The original 3-4 defenses were designed to be ideally suited for stopping the run (since you have more big bodies up front, and your gaps are better managed). In the days when people believed they had to run the football and stop the run, that mattered. These are not those days. Dick LeBeau leveraged the formation into an "unpredictable pass rush" concept when he and Dom invented the Zone Blitz, but that's now just a standard trick in every DC's arsenal.

It's entirely likely that something like the 2-4-5 nickel that Dom ran extensively in 2010, or the hybrid 3-4/4-3 defense that Bellichick has been devising over the past few years is, in fact, the future of the "3-4" defense. In the modern NFL to stop good offenses, first and foremost you have to be able to stop teams from throwing the ball on you and the classic 2-gapping odd front is not really designed for that. So the challenge is to design and implement something that is.

One of the reasons, I believe, that the defense struggled mightily last year was that Dom basically relied on his toolbox form 2010 (which was rational, since that worked very well then) and the other teams figured out how to beat it in the offseason. It's up to Dom this offseason to adapt and come up with something to throw your better offenses for a loop. If nothing else, having players who can get at the quarterback in at least one way (even if it's only one way) are going to help you do that. Capers is at his best as an offensive coordinator when he's forced to innovate, in the past he's overseen a number of defensive declines because he's failed to do that. If nothing else, the pieces that Thompson has given him can be effective, but will not be very effective if Capers tries to fit square pegs in round holes. This could very well be a good thing.

[George Cumby]

Wist, you are such a visionary. You saw a road the packers needed to take and by God they took it. I am simply amazed. No one should ever consider contradicting what you say ever again. I don't even think they should allow anyone to post here but you, execpt of course if it's to agree with you. Ted Thompson knew our front 7 was the worst since the creation of the 3-4 defense. There was perhaps 1 or 2 guys who could play on that D though pretty much everyone sucked. Thankfully, TT finally realised this and decided that he would rather field a bunch of rookies out there (Which I too think is a great, great idea). I think your right.

Perry is definately starting at OLB. He'll play most of the time and our defense will improve because of it. He is at least going to be a NFL calibur player, unlike the schmucks we got in there now. We'll probably let all those other hose bags go (except for walden, he might have a little bit of potential).

At RE, it's going to be Worthy all day long. They don't even need to keep those other D-Bags that played that position last year. Not with worthy there. Who cares what kind of experience those 7th round guys got, screw them, toss em. We might want to keep Mike Neal, but with that 4 game suspension, he's going to have to be at least a pro bowl calibur player to take over for this NFL calibur player that we drafted. Those other guys don't deserve to wash gilbert brown's jock strap.

Now we all know what a shitty year Trammon Williams had last year. 4 INT's, 19 PD's and 58 Tackles? Jesus, he might as well be asking TT for his gold watch. He's lucky though, because Sam Shields played way... way, way way worse. He only had 4 INT's, 13 PD's and 38 tackles. Looks like he's back to special teams because we got ourselves a bonifide NFL calibur CB in Casey Hayword. I sure am glad TT decided to address how shitty our cornerbacks played by picking this guy up. He moved up to get him, you know that means TT thought that our DB's sucked monkey balls.

BJ Raji, Ryan Pickett, your asses are currently on notice you fat tubs of shit. We got Mike Daniels and you guys are fucked. One of you is going to be riding the pine next year and I don't know why you didn't expect it. Did you see how shitty you played last year? You were part of a front 7 that was worse that a bunch of arthritic dress wearing shit eating cry babies Wist and I have ever seen. You were part of a D that sucked so bad, that it's fucking amazing that they didn't single handidly just hand every game we played to the opposition. I mean, I know we went 15-2 and I know we lost to the Giants because of drops and turn overs, but fuck you guys for being on such a piece of shit defense. You know what we did? We picked up a REAL NFL calibur defensive tackle in Mike Daniels. You guys are fucked. No way you can compete with that guy.

We're also lucky as hell we got someone to finally replace that worthless piece of shit Charlie Peprah. That guy sucks. I mean mega sucks, everyone here even agrees with it. That dude is so bad, he may be one of the sole reasons the packers D gave up so many yards last year and we all know that yardage is the absolute best way to determine how good a defense is. I mean, last year? 5 INT's 10 PD's and 78 tackles? He should be dragged out into the parking lot and shot in the knee caps every day at dawn for a performance like that. That's nowhere near Nick Collins' Pro Bowl numbers from 2010 - 4 INT's, 13 PD's and 53 tackles. I mean, Nick Collins created 2 Forced fumbles that year, Peprah? Big goose egg. Fuck that guy. We got Jerron McMillion now. Peprah's taking a walk.

Terrell Manning is going to be a great sub package player for this team. He'll probably push Walden back even farther on the depth chart. This guy is a real NFL calibur player and man am I real happy about that. See, TT doesn't draft for the future, he drafts for next season. These guys absolutely need to contribute and Jerron's no different. He's going to provide the kind of pass rush that Walden and Zombo couldn't even dream of. This guy is lightyears ahead of those other ass holes, he's a real NFL calibur guy, not like Zombo and Walden. They're pieces of shit who should be washing the floor.

I am so happy, just like Wist, that TT decided to do what Wist thought he should do. I'm glad he decided not to get any good players on offense at all, I would rather him take some 4th rounder (who's totally going to play a lot) for defense than some D-bag who probably won't even see the field on offense, even if that guy is better - And we all know that's what TT did. Just admit it guys. Don't make Wist and me rub your nose in it like you're a dog who shit in the living room. It just sucks when we have to do that (although it is kind of fun to use random facts to PROVE that we were right and you were wrong you idiots). I mean, I'm extatic that we got all these awesome guys who are obviously better than the guys we got now. I mean, with all these playmakers that we added, it's impossible not to say that TT was addressing specific needs and these guys are here to fill them.

repped

[Lurker64]

I think long term, Worthy's role is going to be Picket's gig, playing opposite the RT and providing some meat as well as some push.

This year though, at least for the first four games, we just need any competent football player who can provide some push at RE.

Best case scenario though is Neal becomes the player he flashed before he got hurt in his rookie season and stays healthy, then we can have a long term DL of Worthy, Raji, Neal from Left to Right. If all three of those guys work out, they could be our starting DL for the next 6-7 years. If Neal doesn't work out, we're looking for another DE anyway next year (Pickett can't play forever) and it's probably best to find someone best suited to the left side so you can slide Worthy into the role he fits best into in Capers' preferred D.