Scrutiny of the Bounty

[Smeefers]

The "taking the head" comment is moot. They're arguing about symantics when they should be arguing about the "what would the rubbing your finger thumb, index and middle finger together quickly signify to you?" You know, the money sign. A coach can say whatever he wants to motivate the player. The problem is the pay for play.

[pbmax]

The "taking the head" comment is moot. They're arguing about symantics when they should be arguing about the "what would the rubbing your finger thumb, index and middle finger together quickly signify to you?" You know, the money sign. A coach can say whatever he wants to motivate the player. The problem is the pay for play.

Probably, and according to most who attended the presentation, the League has good evidence they were paying for performances.

But don't players get paid in contracts by making big hits? Don't players make incentives by earning playing time? Don't players talk about rules and fines that take away their livelihood by changing the game under their feet? Even that gesture is open to interpretation in the locker room that might be different than in the outside world.

If they knew money had reached the players and not gone back into the kitty (pay for performance Ponzi scheme), that would close the pay for performance case.

The wider question is why Goodell and the League publicly focused on intent to injure. Because their case on that is far weaker. And if they lose their case while mishandling the appeal (which was fostered in part by the NFL's public accusations of intent to injure and $10,000 bounties to knock Favre/Warner out) then they deserve it. Rather than treat it as the more mundane option, they trotted the investigation out as an example of the League doing everything it could to prevent harm to players.

[jdrats]

IMHO the only question that matters to the 2012 Packers at this point is how has Hargrove looked in camp, and can he help to improve the DL. Because, basically Hargrove and his lawyer have now at least sown the seeds of "reasonable doubt" in public opion and I fully expect them to take Hargrove's 8 game suspension to court.

Everything I read prior to this stated that if it should go to court it would: A) include an injunction staying the suspension until the case is resolved, and B) any actual verdict would likely come well after the season and the playoffs.

So, it appears to me that the Packers will have Hargrove available for 16 games and the playoffs this year.

[pbmax]

I wonder how many shoes the NFL has to drop? Aldopho Birch (which might be the greatest name ever) confirms that the typed transcription of handwritten notes (whose author is suspected to be Mike Cerullo) was not sufficient evidence to accuse Joe Vitt of contributing money to the Brett Favre bounty pool.

So the major role played by the notes about the amounts contributed by players, coaches and hangers on to the bounty pool? Even the NFL does not trust it. Explosive and compelling, indeed.

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2012/06/20/league-confirms-vitt-wasnt-accused-of-contributing-to-bounty-pool/

[Joemailman]

Hargrove met with the media in NY and made a good impression by answering some tough questions, but more than a few were skeptical of his claim that the audio on tape after Favre was knocked out wasn't him saying "pay me my money" to McCray. There is some question though, as someone else linked to earlier, since Hargrove did not deliver the knockout hit.

On the audio/video on the sidelines, you can't see if Hargrove is talking when the words "pay me my money" are spoken. That's because Ayodele, with his back to the camera, is blocking the view of Hargrove. http://www.nfl.com/news/story/09000d...headline_stack Ayodele was involved in the hit on Favre, so it would make more sense that he would have uttered the words. I think Hargrove is probably telling the truth.

[KYPack]

There is NFW that Rozelle or Tagliabue would have proceeded with this case is this manner.

Goodell is over his head and has totally fucked things up.

This PR nightmare well may bring his ass down.

Justifiably, in my mind.

[Patler]

It is very clear that Hargrove starts to say something, but it is very muffled. Ayodele leans back, and the infamous words are louder and more clear. Hargrove did not move. Why would his voice suddenly be louder and clearer? I, too, suspect it was Ayodele's voice, or someone closer to the mic than Hargrove was.

Why would Hargrove ask for the money when he did not make the hit?
Why would his voice suddenly be clearer?

As for evidence of the existence of the bounty program, it doesn't matter who said it, the words are evidence that it exists. But if this is part of their justification for taking a half-year away from Hargrove, it's crap. There is a group of players, and not one player's lips are visible when the phrase is heard. To attribute it to any one player, especially to one that did not make the play in question, is a very amateurish legal approach, in my opinion.

I wonder what it would cost Hargrove to have voice analysis done on the recording, and if the results would be reliable?

[MadScientist]

On the audio/video on the sidelines, you can't see if Hargrove is talking when the words "pay me my money" are spoken. That's because Ayodele, with his back to the camera, is blocking the view of Hargrove. http://www.nfl.com/news/story/09000d...headline_stack Ayodele was involved in the hit on Favre, so it would make more sense that he would have uttered the words. I think Hargrove is probably telling the truth.

Maybe, but it sure sounds like the same voice that said "Bobby" said "pay me my money". It also doesn't make sence for Hargrove to call out for Bobby and then say nothing after that or not react when someone else cut in. Again not a certainty, but suspicious. Hargrove's story is tough to accept.

[pbmax]

As for evidence of the existence of the bounty program, it doesn't matter who said it, the words are evidence that it exists.

I would say evidence it was discussed. If no one actually cashed a check or took the money, then its hard to claim its a bounty OR payment system. Its all talk.

Now I have read some players did not kick the money back in, but most of the evidence is not clear on this point. I doubt the NFL has the power to look at bank records and if its cash, it wouldn't matter anyway.

But I think its telling the League did not introduce the "ledger" as part of the supporting evidence during the appeal. Given that they already doubt the handwritten notes, they must also doubt the ledger since its records did not correspond to actual game events. I doubt very much that McCray or Ayodele received a payment for the hit.

[sharpe1027]

It is very clear that Hargrove starts to say something, but it is very muffled. Ayodele leans back, and the infamous words are louder and more clear. Hargrove did not move. Why would his voice suddenly be louder and clearer? I, too, suspect it was Ayodele's voice, or someone closer to the mic than Hargrove was.

Why would Hargrove ask for the money when he did not make the hit?
Why would his voice suddenly be clearer?

As for evidence of the existence of the bounty program, it doesn't matter who said it, the words are evidence that it exists. But if this is part of their justification for taking a half-year away from Hargrove, it's crap. There is a group of players, and not one player's lips are visible when the phrase is heard. To attribute it to any one player, especially to one that did not make the play in question, is a very amateurish legal approach, in my opinion.

I wonder what it would cost Hargrove to have voice analysis done on the recording, and if the results would be reliable?

I guess it could be that Ayodele was between Hargrove and the microphone and when he moved there was a clear path between Hargrove and the microphone. That still doesn't answer your other question.

[pbmax]

Witness says voice is not Hargrove.

http://www.jsonline.com/blogs/sports/159795055.html?utm_medium=twitter&utm_source=twitterfeed#!page=1&pageSize=10&sort=newestfirst

Anyone else getting the sense that the NFL investigation was, shall we say, less than thorough? Its taken the press and social media less than two days to bring far more information to light. Of course, the subjects of the investigation have a bit more motivation now.

[Smeefers]

There's one thing you guys are forgetting. Greg Williams was suspended, basically, forever. I'm pretty sure he's been told that if he doesn't fully cooperate with the league, he'll never be allowed to coach in the NFL again. All he has to do is point a few fingers and all this goes out the window.

[pbmax]

There's one thing you guys are forgetting. Greg Williams was suspended, basically, forever. I'm pretty sure he's been told that if he doesn't fully cooperate with the league, he'll never be allowed to coach in the NFL again. All he has to do is point a few fingers and all this goes out the window.

Which makes his Goodell enforced silence problematic. And it makes him a poor witness in general. If he wishes to work, and he was trying to get his son into the profession, he needs to avoid ticking off the League office.

[pbmax]

Hasselback had a bounty on him according to PFT and the Tennessean. Apparently there is a list of bounties for the Saints playoff game versus Seattle. Unlike the Vikings game list, I haven't seen it. Has anyone?

[Guiness]

Hasselback had a bounty on him according to PFT and the Tennessean. Apparently there is a list of bounties for the Saints playoff game versus Seattle. Unlike the Vikings game list, I haven't seen it. Has anyone?

Don't know about Tennessee, but (related because of Hasselbeck) there sure wasn't a bounty on Lynch during that playoff game!