The Level-Headed Thread About the Defense.

[3irty1]

I'm ok with firing Capers if he can be replaced with a stud like Lovie Smith. Lovie is like a Mike McCarthy on Defense, he never puts a trash Defense on the field. Clay Matthews is no reason to keep Capers. Seattle has 2 or 3 guys in Clay Matthews mold and manages to get production out of all of them. Clay is good enough at everything to be a star in any system.

I'm also ok with keeping Capers. One of Capers's real strengths seems to be getting the best out of all these UFA's he's been given but that in itself is a problem. We've been incredibly unlucky with injuries the past 3 seasons and its a huge testimate to TT and Capers that we've managed to keep winning despite having our depth so riggourously tested. Capers or not this defensive front 7 needs another injection of talent both on the DL and the LBer positons. Last year was the year of the QB and this year was the year of the running QB. These are shiny new offenses run by players like RGIII, Wilson, Newton, and Kaepernick are not a gimmick and everyone in the league will be retooling to stop this offseason including the Packers. The Packers should too and I think Dom can do it if TT can find him the Players.

In 2009 the Packers were among the best in the league at stoping the run. The 3-4 is inherently a stronger run-stopping defense than the 4-3 but we also had a meaty line of Pickett, Raji, and Johnny Jolly. PIckett and Jolly were both among the very elite against the run. Raji was above average and also just very hard to move.

In 2010 the Packers lost Jolly but still fielded the best overall defense we've seen under Dom Capers. Capers managed to take the strength of his defense, stopping the run, and turn it into a great all-around defense by putting Pickett and Raji on the field at the same time in what otherwise was a pass-defense. The result was to dare the opposition to run against the favorable formation but the Packers were still good enough at stopping it that they could bend but not break perfectly. When the run absolutely needed to be stopped the Packers added Howard Green to their 3-4 for a 3 man front that weighed over 1000 pounds and could not be moved. Rotationally CJ Wilson proved serviceable in running situations and a healthy Jenkins could be dominate at times in passing situations.

In 2011 the wheels fell off although the only major change on defense was the loss of Jenkins. There was regression for several individuals but the main reason was that this defense did not keep up with the Jones's. Last year the whole league went nuts with passing. 4 QB's would have won the MVP for 2012 with their numbers from 2011. I can't really say if we were still great against the run because every game was a shootout. It was clear after this season that we must retool by boosting the talent of our secondary and overhauling our pass rush. We did exactly that.

In 2012 the defense was much improved. Hayward emerged as a top slot cornerback in the NFL, a position at a premium right now in the NFL. Nick Perry, as well as undersized Mike Daniels was added to boost the pass rush and Worthy fell into our lap as a solid DL prospect. Unfortuantely injuries again ravaged the offensive line and defensive front 7. The offense while still potent was not the record setting monster from the year before and it once again made sense to run against the Packers. And teams did and they were successful. Turns out our year off from having to care about the run has weakened our defense's strongest quality. I think its time to retool again. Another big body is needed both the supplement and eventually replace Ryan Pickett. Another NT anchor type who can hold up. At least one OLB is needed to displace Walden and platoon with Perry. I appreciate Walden's willingness to sacrafice his body and play with such ferocity, but we need someone more athletic assignment sure. Walden's best spot might be as an ILB where his phyicallity and instincts are missing. ILB should be addressed as well. Jones is a situational linebacker at best and getting back Bishop and Smith will put him back on the bench. While Barnett is a solid player with the potential to break out and become a pro-bowler, we've not had great play from our other safety position since Nick Collins. The guys we have are good enough to win with but until we have an elite safety I think its wise to keep searching.

Assuming we stick with Dom, what changes would you like to see made?

[PaCkFan_n_MD]

The Woodson/MD Jennings Combo at safety is not working. Burnett is decent but I don’t know if he is a pro bowler. Next season well be his make or break year. Either he will continue to be decent or he make a big leap and become an above average player. Considering how much Woodson is making coupled with his decline in performance I don’t see how they could keep him. MD is a stick trying to be a safety; I have no hope for him to turn into a player. McMillan? Who knows. He seems decent, but so did Bigby. I think drafting a safety should be a high priority.

The CB position is fine. Williams has not played nearly as good as he did in 2010 but he is not horrible. Between Him, Shields, House, and Hayward I don’t see a weakness at CB. If the front 7 is fixed, the secondary talent will show.

ILB – Bishop is a good player, Smith is a good backup. Hawk is a decent player, but not worth the money he is making. Everyone else is bad. Cut Hawk draft a quality player who is hopefully a playmaker next to Bishop.

OLB – Clay is a stud. Perry looks decent at stopping the run, but I don’t think he will ever be decent at trying to cover anyone. I think they need to find yet another OLB and let Perry play more of a hybrid role. Maybe on the ground sometimes (passing downs?) and standing up on first and second down.

DL – Raji is a good player. Worthy/Daniels are hard to judge. Are they players? Its to early to tell. Mike Neal seems decent, but nowhere near as disruptive as Jenkins was. Pickett is getting old, but he is still a decent player. He has one year left on his contract so he eventually needs to be replaced regardless.

Need another defense heavy draft. I hope they keep the Wr’s intact so that they can focus on fixing the defense in the draft. Even if they lose Finley, if they keep Jennings, the offense will still be top 10. Draft defense defense defense.

[wist43]

I started building the "Fire Dom!!!" bandwagon a long time ago - but it's simply not going to happen. Since that is the case, how do we put lipstick on the pig??

We're still woefully underpowered in our front seven. TT made some progress with drafting Worthy, Perry, and Daniels, but of course Capers misused them. TT needs to bring in a couple more strong, run stuffing, 2 gap defensive linemen, and completely rebuild the linebacking corp.

Jones, Zombo, Hawk, and Walden all need to be replaced.

In the back end, I'd like to see more physicality out of our safeties and corners, but that simply isn't going to happen. All the Packers care about is coverage - and they don't even do that well; but the coverage problems I put on Capers. I think our DB's are well suited to being solid in coverage, but will never do anything in run support and their tackling will always be a joke. The Packers as an organization really do think the game is more akin to flag football and will never bring in physical DB's as long as TT, MM, and Capers are calling the shots.

In short, we're stuck with the mess we have b/c of the overall philosophy of the Packers organization. They believe in finesse football. Running the ball on offense is only a function of the passing game; and stopping the run on defense can only be achieved by the opposing offense being forced away from the run b/c we got out to a lead and they have to play catch up.

We can win games against other finesse teams, or teams that are offensively challenged - like the Bears; but a leopard doesn't change his spots, and the Packers aren't going to make any changes.

We're stuck with what we have. Our identity as a team is finesse. That isn't going to change, and Capers will continue to be Capers.

[George Cumby]

I started building the "Fire Dom!!!" bandwagon a long time ago - but it's simply not going to happen. Since that is the case, how do we put lipstick on the pig??

We're still woefully underpowered in our front seven. TT made some progress with drafting Worthy, Perry, and Daniels, but of course Capers misused them. TT needs to bring in a couple more strong, run stuffing, 2 gap defensive linemen, and completely rebuild the linebacking corp.

Jones, Zombo, Hawk, and Walden all need to be replaced.

In the back end, I'd like to see more physicality out of our safeties and corners, but that simply isn't going to happen. All the Packers care about is coverage - and they don't even do that well; but the coverage problems I put on Capers. I think our DB's are well suited to being solid in coverage, but will never do anything in run support and their tackling will always be a joke. The Packers as an organization really do think the game is more akin to flag football and will never bring in physical DB's as long as TT, MM, and Capers are calling the shots.

In short, we're stuck with the mess we have b/c of the overall philosophy of the Packers organization. They believe in finesse football. Running the ball on offense is only a function of the passing game; and stopping the run on defense can only be achieved by the opposing offense being forced away from the run b/c we got out to a lead and they have to play catch up.

We can win games against other finesse teams, or teams that are offensively challenged - like the Bears; but a leopard doesn't change his spots, and the Packers aren't going to make any changes.

We're stuck with what we have. Our identity as a team is finesse. That isn't going to change, and Capers will continue to be Capers.

Ok. I'm with you now. That was a fucking ass-kicking that started up front. Although I hate to say it, this Defense needs a fucking thug, a Ray Lewis, Wayne Simmons type to give the D a little savagery to put the fear into people, including his own teammates.

[mraynrand]

I think it's pretty well covered that the front 7 are terrible undermanned - at least 3 LBs are substandard and last night, with Pickett hurt, there was maybe 1-2 DL worth anything. That's personnel and there's no getting around that when you're facing a very elite OL. But players, scheme or not have to make plays. Matthews, who everyone in every thread here calls "a stud" either played like crap and/or was thoroughly dominated for 3+ quarters. I get the idea of blitzing a rookie QB, who may get the jitters, but when after a first INT, he settles down and starts scorching you for runs as well as very accurate passes against the blitz - and you're not getting there with the blitz, you probably should make some adjustments. Nevertheless, the simple fact is that the Packers are four decent players and one stud short on the defensive side of the ball. There were absolutely manhandled, abused, and thrashed in the second half. The second half looked like Alabama/Notre Dame. Right now the Packers are not in the niners class, and it's very hard to see how they get there in just one off season.

[LEWCWA]

I really aint buying none of that....This team got gashed last night,imo, because they can't/didn't play zone. Against this type of offense you have to have eyes facing the play and GB all too often had 6 sets of eyes with their back to the los. I believe if they could have been effective in a zone defense using Woodson to follow CK all over the field this would have been a different game. GB thought they could contain with 4 or 5 guys and well they couldn't. Waldon crashing killed them and Woodson not spying CK left slow footed players trying to catch this kid! It was painfully abvious that someone had to account for CK early, but GB never did any of that! Woodson should have been the answer, but he was absent in whatever scheme they were running.....It is apparent to me that you have to force this kid to beat you with his arm! He is much better than what they saw against MN, but was really only ok throwing until things got outta hand and GB's d had been on the field all night....

[mraynrand]

...It is apparent to me that you have to force this kid to beat you with his arm!

well, he did just that too, in case you missed it. Deep connection to Davis, and pinpoint passes and TD to Crabtree, some past very tight coverage. I'll accept that maybe with a zone the Packers might have bled a little more slowly, but with zero pass pressure, they were going to surrender a lot of yards, especially since their DBs are not all that hot at playing zone. Packers front 7 is total shit right now - at least against the kind of O lines and QBs they will need to get past to win a championship.

[LEWCWA]

Yes late he really made some solid throws, but buy that time the D had been on the field for the whole game and his confidence was sky high! Early in the game his throws were erratic at best, Christ at one point I think I saw he was 13-27....You keep a QB under 50% they shouldn't beat you, but when you add 150+ yards running your done!

[LEWCWA]

Let me preface this with the fact that CK played an excellent game! I would have much rather seem him forced to sustain drives with his arm rather than his legs. I saw plenty of throws that were close to being picked and plenty that were just spot on. Well he is an NFL QB and should be able to make throws. I saw Woodson come close to a pick, I saw Tramon gamble on a pick(had the ball been outside/instead of inside) that would have went for six. The kid would have missed throws and maybe put some in your hands. I do agree the front didn't do the job, but alot of that had to do with CK's athleticism. I saw some pressure that normal QB's would have caved under, but this kid is so good with his feet that once you don't get home your in trouble! I thought clay was good early, but going against a hurt player he either got tired of confused. Clay was not good last night either.....I still contend Woodson was the key, his assignment should have been number 7 at least from the second quarter on!

[wist43]

I really aint buying none of that....This team got gashed last night,imo, because they can't/didn't play zone. Against this type of offense you have to have eyes facing the play and GB all too often had 6 sets of eyes with their back to the los. I believe if they could have been effective in a zone defense using Woodson to follow CK all over the field this would have been a different game. GB thought they could contain with 4 or 5 guys and well they couldn't. Waldon crashing killed them and Woodson not spying CK left slow footed players trying to catch this kid! It was painfully abvious that someone had to account for CK early, but GB never did any of that! Woodson should have been the answer, but he was absent in whatever scheme they were running.....It is apparent to me that you have to force this kid to beat you with his arm! He is much better than what they saw against MN, but was really only ok throwing until things got outta hand and GB's d had been on the field all night....

I'm the blitz happiest guy on this board, but I would have tempered that in this game b/c of CK's running ability. Capers's gameplan was moronic, and he never changed out of it.

I would have come into the game with a much more traditional 3-4, gap-control, contain the QB in the pocket up front; scheme the coverage to take away Davis and Crabtree on obvious passing downs, and adjust from there; and yes, I would have played more zone.

Capers is Capers though... he's always slow to adjust. The players have complained about it in the past, and in this game he didn't adjust at all. Nothing left to do but throw tomatos at the screen and wonder what in God's name goes thru Capers head as he's watching this shit unfold from up in the booth.

Yes we're undermanned up front, but even with being undermanned to some extent, there's no excuse for getting gashed for 2,000 yards and 150 pts. That's on Capers.

[3irty1]

The Woodson/MD Jennings Combo at safety is not working. Burnett is decent but I don’t know if he is a pro bowler. Next season well be his make or break year. Either he will continue to be decent or he make a big leap and become an above average player. Considering how much Woodson is making coupled with his decline in performance I don’t see how they could keep him. MD is a stick trying to be a safety; I have no hope for him to turn into a player. McMillan? Who knows. He seems decent, but so did Bigby. I think drafting a safety should be a high priority.

At this point in Woodson's career he can really only carry the assignments of an undersized linebacker. Burnett isn't yet a probowler but it wouldn't surprise anyone if he were to make that transition. McMillian is promising in that he's a marvelous athlete and shows promise as a tackler with better than expected ball skills but is still probably a few years away if he is to become the stud we're looking for. I don't want to wait to see what he becomes, I agree that the search must continue. Safties have a very low bust-rate and are typically more NFL ready than other defeinsive postions as rookies.

As always, the Packers success will hinge on the progression of 2nd and 3rd year players although not if they keep getting robbed of their offseasons because of injuries. Neal is a strong candidate to take a step forward and become a difference maker. Worthy could beome a solid any-situation type player if he can make it back in time for next season. I'll be interested to see how Moses progresses. Perry can single-handedly make the defense elite if he can figure things out and stay healthy. Tons of potential there.

[LEWCWA]

I'm the blitz happiest guy on this board, but I would have tempered that in this game b/c of CK's running ability. Capers's gameplan was moronic, and he never changed out of it.

I would have come into the game with a much more traditional 3-4, gap-control, contain the QB in the pocket up front; scheme the coverage to take away Davis and Crabtree on obvious passing downs, and adjust from there; and yes, I would have played more zone.

Capers is Capers though... he's always slow to adjust. The players have complained about it in the past, and in this game he didn't adjust at all. Nothing left to do but throw tomatos at the screen and wonder what in God's name goes thru Capers head as he's watching this shit unfold from up in the booth.

Yes we're undermanned up front, but even with being undermanned to some extent, there's no excuse for getting gashed for 2,000 years and 150 pts. That's on Capers.

I think we are saying the same things in a different way...Yeah much of what I say falls on Capers. I think this team was suprised by how fast and strong CK is. I guess really this def got toasted on 3rd down. Plenty of times they had them 3rd and semi long and couldn't get off the field! And yes I agree that is mostly on Capers, but quite a few times the play was there to be made and it just wasn't!

[Joemailman]

I'm the blitz happiest guy on this board, but I would have tempered that in this game b/c of CK's running ability. Capers's gameplan was moronic, and he never changed out of it.

I would have come into the game with a much more traditional 3-4, gap-control, contain the QB in the pocket up front; scheme the coverage to take away Davis and Crabtree on obvious passing downs, and adjust from there; and yes, I would have played more zone.

Capers is Capers though... he's always slow to adjust. The players have complained about it in the past, and in this game he didn't adjust at all. Nothing left to do but throw tomatos at the screen and wonder what in God's name goes thru Capers head as he's watching this shit unfold from up in the booth.

Yes we're undermanned up front, but even with being undermanned to some extent, there's no excuse for getting gashed for 2,000 years and 150 pts. That's on Capers.

Charles Woodson:

“When the game is going the way it is, then you have to try something different,” Woodson said. “It’s hard to just continue to do the same thing over and over again and have it continue to burn you. So that’s what I was talking about, going forward, you have to figure out, could we have done something differently as far as our game plan is concerned?”

[Old School]

I have a question. At the beginning of the game I saw Matthews just whacking away on Staley's arms. Then they showed Staley on the bench in what appeared to be serious pain. I didn't think Staley would finish the 1st quarter. I kept watching for Clay to go back at his arm(s), but it never happened.

What am I missing?

[woodbuck27]

The Woodson/MD Jennings Combo at safety is not working. Burnett is decent but I don’t know if he is a pro bowler. Next season well be his make or break year. Either he will continue to be decent or he make a big leap and become an above average player. Considering how much Woodson is making coupled with his decline in performance I don’t see how they could keep him. MD is a stick trying to be a safety; I have no hope for him to turn into a player. McMillan? Who knows. He seems decent, but so did Bigby. I think drafting a safety should be a high priority.

The CB position is fine. Williams has not played nearly as good as he did in 2010 but he is not horrible. Between Him, Shields, House, and Hayward I don’t see a weakness at CB. If the front 7 is fixed, the secondary talent will show.

ILB – Bishop is a good player, Smith is a good backup. Hawk is a decent player, but not worth the money he is making. Everyone else is bad. Cut Hawk draft a quality player who is hopefully a playmaker next to Bishop.

OLB – Clay is a stud. Perry looks decent at stopping the run, but I don’t think he will ever be decent at trying to cover anyone. I think they need to find yet another OLB and let Perry play more of a hybrid role. Maybe on the ground sometimes (passing downs?) and standing up on first and second down.

DL – Raji is a good player. Worthy/Daniels are hard to judge. Are they players? Its to early to tell. Mike Neal seems decent, but nowhere near as disruptive as Jenkins was. Pickett is getting old, but he is still a decent player. He has one year left on his contract so he eventually needs to be replaced regardless.

Need another defense heavy draft. I hope they keep the Wr’s intact so that they can focus on fixing the defense in the draft. Even if they lose Finley, if they keep Jennings, the offense will still be top 10. Draft defense defense defense.

Nice post and accurate overall analysis of our needs on 'D'.