THE draft thread (2013 version)

[rbaloha1]

If you listen to TT's post draft audio the draft chart issue was brought up -- He talked about draft charts as just "numbers" and its players and trusting scouting departments that he utilizes.

TT is not a moneyball guy.

[pbmax]

If you listen to TT's post draft audio the draft chart issue was brought up -- He talked about draft charts as just "numbers" and its players and trusting scouting departments that he utilizes.

TT is not a moneyball guy.

The trade value chart is not moneyball. And he said they tended to use the old chart this year, despite the arrival of new charts after the new CBA because not every team was using the new chart. To bridge the differences he trusted the scouts.

[pbmax]

JSOnline Draft Bio of Barrington

Weighed 246 at the combine and ran the 40 in 4.85. Was 235 at pro day and clocked 4.73. Vertical jump of 37, broad jump of 10-2 and 22 reps on the bench. Arms were 32¼, hands were 10¼.

I think 4.85 would be the low end of his combine number as the official number is 4.91. Pro Day is a better number but I suspect is still low for an ILB.

[rbaloha1]

The trade value chart is not moneyball. And he said they tended to use the old chart this year, despite the arrival of new charts after the new CBA because not every team was using the new chart. To bridge the differences he trusted the scouts.

The point is TT is not a stats guy -- thank goodness.

With TT its all about grinding and scouting.

[woodbuck27]

Woody, Jimmy Johnson put that chart together 21 years ago to evaluate draft value. I thought that's what you referring to when you said you "checked the draft value's". That chart has been out-moded and not used for for quite a few years.

The NFL has changed a lot since Jimmah and Jerrah used that table of values There have been newer tables developed, some teams only use their own tables as rough guides, and some teams don't use 'em at all.

Using that old table, you figure that TT "lost" that trade with SF in the second round. TT traded down, got the RB he wanted, and picked up a 6th rnd pick. You use the ancient table and somehow think TT got snookered in the deal. You are dead nuts wrong in your assumptions.

But, you could end up right if Lacy busts. That is possible, Lacy is a good hand, but he also a plodder, he has a stomping running style that might not translate into a talented NFL running back. That's the crap shoot the NFL draft is.

TT creates his draft board based on the evaluations of his scouts. He then follows his scouts advice and makes his draft picks by religiously following his board. That is a radical departure from his predecessor. Shermy thought he knew better than his scouts and barred them from the draft room. I'll take TT and his methods. This regime uncovered two UDFA's who were out of position in college, we moved them to their NFL jobs and wound up with two NFL players out of the deal. Other teams scouting departments aren't uncovering guys like Dezman Moses and Sam Shields, the two guys I'm talking about. They are the football talent evaluating professionals, not rabid fans like you. You are so close to the forest, you can't see the trees (or the ground, maybe).

I believe in TT and his regime. It's good we have dedicated fans, but I'm glad the fans aren't drafting our talent for us. The fans are clueless in that regard.

Hi KY:

I have nothing in me that would point at Ted thompson and his draft team and picking Eddie Lacy. That was a strong value pick. After that he's a wait and see, that I hope works out awesomely for the Green Bay Packers. I hope that every pick works out, 'even' as they are. I'm a realist...several won't.

As to TT and his draft team. I refuse to debate this as I'm still too stubborn to it. I'm just now accepting reality. TT's picks and the good and bad or ugly parts of that.

Ted Thompson's draft last week. Try to hold back on the insults Ted Thompson apologists.

1>>> 2 >>>3. Your the 2.

TT's draft:

I could pick five /six posters at Packerrats that I would trust to better TT's last draft. Some of them might even be 'Homers' (-;.

I'll expand that to seven/eight posters....and there are more here that armed with some real pre-draft preperation and half a clue what was going to happen. Would direct a better draft than Ted Thompson did last week. Having the good fortune to get such an incredible value 'trading up' >>> RB Johnathan Franklin, saved his reputation.

I'm reminded of Detective Joe Friday now...'The facts mame ... just stick to the facts'.

I don't mean to be in anyone's face but what's the scoop here;

His use of Rd. 4 Pick #122 on OT J. C. Tretter !? An intriguing choice, when he had so many other options at that specific position...or OT. I'm still assessing that pick but I'm guessing that he missed the likes of :

OT's Oday Abushi; Reid Fragel; David Quessenberry; Ricky Wagner and well ... add Jordan Mills.

We're none of these prospects on Ted Thompson's board?

His pick of OLB Nate Palmer the 593/2444 on DraftScouts.Com >>> A VERY Likely BUST as a WR on our roster but ***maybe? ST's.

His pic at Rd. 7 #232 would have secured the best option of the three that he added to our off season. It's unlikely any other NFL draft team was considering WR Dorsey. BUST or ***.

Ted Thompson could have done much better in that draft. I believe that Ted Thompson would be the first to inform you of that same fact if he was your close friend. I cannot imagine that it's all in Ted Thompson's draftboard. Is that logical..... or ..... an excuse?

The Draft Board for any team is a dynamic process within the DRAFT, that changes somehow with every pick. A fricken' computer with the most elaborate software and programming has a tough job keeping up with it. Ted Thompson is a long ways from any computer and I'm grateful for that in some regards.

Sorry KY... I know you love TT as so many do here but all the same. Ted Thompson's draft in 2013 went south...... in Round Three. It went >>> to bad >>> from there

TT had options there that he dramatically ignored. This stuff that I'm reading here. The re-direct jazz...that he traded down twice out of Round Three ...to target prospects on the OL as some want to claim... ignores all the options that he had at Rd. 4 Pick # 122 to adress that specific option.

Nice try...that's not going to work. I do my homework.


The real matter of this post response:
That's all moot in terms of his three (3) trades down and one (1) trade up.

" Using that old table, you figure that TT "lost" that trade with SF in the second round. TT traded down, got the RB he wanted, and picked up a 6th rnd pick. You use the ancient table and somehow think TT got snookered in the deal. You are dead nuts wrong in your assumptions.

But, you could end up right if Lacy busts. That is possible, Lacy is a good hand, but he also a plodder, he has a stomping running style that might not translate into a talented NFL running back. That's the crap shoot the NFL draft is." KYP

Wrong ...dead wrong isn't my concern. It's ... 'What in HELL is going on around this place?'

Me being dead or nuts or deadnuts...hahahahaha... that's all moot I assure you/any member here.

I don't even have to be right because now it's simply 'a wait and see' thing.

To the specific issue and 'Draft Trade Value'.

I've been looking for something on this so called 'NEW' Draft Trading Value 'Chart. All I found on the internet was reference to the chart I've always used. I got something from 3irty1 last night that I have to study. It's a LINK to some 'NEW' method to value draft trades (etc.?). I simply need a day to focus on it. It's a tad complicated looking at it... first glance.

I'll try to find (again) and post a LINK to an article by ** a Texas Media source; that focus's on how the San Fran 49ers (again). Taking the 'the Dallas Cowboys' down in this same draft. Specifically in the case of them swapping picks in round one. The 49ers were pissing their pants, coveting FS Eric Reid to groom in their system. They had so much going in that they could afford 'a reach'.

Just one of their picks that if it works out. Will make the San Fran 49ers SET/STRONG for year's.

It's sickening just how well the 49ers did in this draft, grading out at the top. With the real evaluation, three years down the road that I'll see that with the 'Luck Of The Irish'.

The writer of ** that article, specifically refers to the 'Old' Trade Value Chart.

All reference's that I'm finding refer to the same chart.

In that instance, the claim ... 'Jerry Jones and the Boys' lost 80 Value Points in the exchange with the 49ers. 80 Trade Value Points stripped from 'the Boys'. I felt badly for Jerry Jones....a total switch. Packer fans hate the Bears Vikings and Lions. I dislike the 49ers and the Boys because of Favre/Rodgers Era Green Bay Packer embarassments at their hands. What have those NFCN teams ever really done to the Packers in that same recent era but little to nothing. I know it's supposed to be some Green Bay Packer 'Time Aged Honoured Tradition' to hate NFCN teams. I simply can't find that energy to get there.

I don't want Packerrats to imagine I'm trying to dishonour Ted Thompson. I have lots of problems getting a realistic grip on that man. It's simply that and I'm on record at Packerrats explaining that. It's a blessing that I possess a sense of humour. Ted Thompson has always perplexed me. I can own that without disliking, moreso hating, the man I believe I see in Ted Thompson.

I'm looking at different things now trying to get a better understanding of what TT was doing last Saturday April 27,2013. Damn... it was getting so bad from where I was sitting. That I thought that day was his April's Fools Day . When it was all over or after Pick RD. 7 #232. I fell just short of a carnal screem. I was pissed off to a degree I've seldom reached in the last 2 decades.

I was a long way from this:

I was experiencing a WTF moment.

[run pMc]

Wasn't it last year that people were talking about how TT got the better of Belichick using the draft chart? Meh, it's all giveth and taketh to me.
Nobody likes to get ripped off though. I can't say for sure they could've done better -- maybe TT wanted to trade down but only SF was willing, and SEA reacted as a result of that trade. I don't think it happens in a vacuum.
All that said, I think the draft certainly wasn't star-studded but probably solid.

It's not where you're drafted, it's what you do after that.

[woodbuck27]

Wasn't it last year that people were talking about how TT got the better of Belichick using the draft chart? Meh, it's all giveth and taketh to me.
Nobody likes to get ripped off though. I can't say for sure they could've done better -- maybe TT wanted to trade down but only SF was willing, and SEA reacted as a result of that trade. I don't think it happens in a vacuum.
All that said, I think the draft certainly wasn't star-studded but probably solid.

It's not where you're drafted, it's what you do after that.

Taking away 'all the specifics' ...YOUR absolutey correct.

Eventually I hope we all learn from this>>>accept that learning and I know we'll all arrive at the same place >>> Green Bay Packers.

GO PACK GO !

[woodbuck27]

If you listen to TT's post draft audio the draft chart issue was brought up -- He talked about draft charts as just "numbers" and its players and trusting scouting departments that he utilizes.

TT is not a moneyball guy.

Moneyball >>> What a decent movie. I went to the theater to see it twice. I'm a bit into numbers though and not so much shapes. Especially when that's in reference to men.

The draft chart issue !

The inside there >>> That wasn't deemed classified by Ted. LOL.

Ted Thompson's >>> a hoot.

I like him. He's very human >>> far - far >>> from 'the Genious'.

PACKERS !

[pbmax]

I could pick five /six posters at Packerrats that I would trust to better TT's last draft. Some of them might even be 'Homers' (-;.

I'll expand that to seven/eight posters....and there are more here that armed with some real pre-draft preperation and half a clue what was going to happen. Would direct a better draft than Ted Thompson did last week. Having the good fortune to get such an incredible value 'trading up' >>> RB Johnathan Franklin, saved his reputation.

Woodbuck, these men are paid professionals who watch these college prospects 320 days out of the year, if not more. Full time, not part time. They have game tape, not You Tube highlights, access to practices and coaches. Can interview players and their family and conduct background checks. Mike Trgovac knew he liked Boyd from college tape a year ago. And that is the coach, who does do this only part time. Was anyone here aware of him, and watching his game tape last year? A junior in college?

They also have access to professional coaches to answer questions about scheme, technique and responsibility.

You cannot seriously think that any poster here is ready to do a better job than any NFL GM.

There is a difference between being smart enough to do something and being trained and ready to do something.

[3irty1]

Woodbuck, these men are paid professionals who watch these college prospects 320 days out of the year, if not more. Full time, not part time. They have game tape, not You Tube highlights, access to practices and coaches. Can interview players and their family and conduct background checks. Mike Trgovac knew he liked Boyd from college tape a year ago. And that is the coach, who does do this only part time. Was anyone here aware of him, and watching his game tape last year? A junior in college?

They also have access to professional coaches to answer questions about scheme, technique and responsibility.

You cannot seriously think that any poster here is ready to do a better job than any NFL GM.

There is a difference between being smart enough to do something and being trained and ready to do something.

I'm actually pretty sure most internet forums could have run the Raiders better than Al Davis.

[rbaloha1]

Woodbuck, these men are paid professionals who watch these college prospects 320 days out of the year, if not more. Full time, not part time. They have game tape, not You Tube highlights, access to practices and coaches. Can interview players and their family and conduct background checks. Mike Trgovac knew he liked Boyd from college tape a year ago. And that is the coach, who does do this only part time. Was anyone here aware of him, and watching his game tape last year? A junior in college?

They also have access to professional coaches to answer questions about scheme, technique and responsibility.

You cannot seriously think that any poster here is ready to do a better job than any NFL GM.

There is a difference between being smart enough to do something and being trained and ready to do something.

Plus he possessed the Packer desired length.

[KYPack]

Woody, I'll get into a reply here, but also will reference some of this in the "Trades" thread.

Since the draft thread began, I really was puzzled. It started in round 2. Thompson got the top rated running back AND a 6 for moving down 6 spots. That's a great deal right there, now. You and Wist were in tears over the whole deal. I get the idea with Wist. He's the great contrarian, everything TT and MM do it is bad, etc, etc. That's fine, every argument needs a good contrarian.

Your own concerns were a little harder to figure out. You idea was SF is the evil empire and they have fleeced the shit out of TT (& of course, the GBP).

My own response was, "is this guy shittin' me, that's a great trade". Then, I began to realize to evaluate the trade, you are referring the olde & ancient Jimmy Johnson chart from 20 - 25 years ago. Even on that chart, that trade is even. NFL teams don't use the Jimmy Johnson (JJ) chart anymore. They abandoned it for various reasons. It doesn't factor in future picks, or vet player trades. Also, it hasn't kept up with salary structures that have changed, mainly around the changing rookie levels, both up and down.

NFL teams use several different trade charts. 1. JJ enhanced Some teams revved up the JJ chart and made it work in the new times.
2. PR Pro Football Reference has a modern chart which allows for future picks and other smoothing factors
3. HSA You are a math minor? You'd love this trade chart which has more wrinkles than an old moose. Developed by some morons at Harvard Business school who wanted to make $ by fucking around with draft pick value charts. Some observers think the HSA is the superior draft charting system.
4. Custom You know Belichick has some kind of voodoo math chart that nobody else has, rumored, but not confirmed.

The chart you tout is old and not used anymore. But that ain't what the internet says. If you google the charts, all the responses are about the old, original JJ chart. Why? Young ass writers don't know any better, so they just copy what's out there & don't update themselves or their readers.

The real reason that you think Thompson had a terrible draft and got snookered by the 9ers & fins is....

TT did not draft to YOUR board.

You worked your ass off analyzing the draft and made your own board.

When TT did his own thing, you were outraged and yelped about every move that didn't meet your board.

Your board is just that, your board. TT's board is put together by the whole GBP staff, one that has a proven professional track record.

Your board is just your opinion.

Woody, you've stated that PackerRat posters could do better than TT. I don't think a whole village of PR posters would be able to do the job of a junior guy on TT's staff. It's a professional gig, one that requires knowledge and training for years to become effective.

All of us (out here) are just fans. Good, knowledgeable fans, but not able to put together the draft board T's staff has done.

[rbaloha1]

Woodbuck, these men are paid professionals who watch these college prospects 320 days out of the year, if not more. Full time, not part time. They have game tape, not You Tube highlights, access to practices and coaches. Can interview players and their family and conduct background checks. Mike Trgovac knew he liked Boyd from college tape a year ago. And that is the coach, who does do this only part time. Was anyone here aware of him, and watching his game tape last year? A junior in college?

They also have access to professional coaches to answer questions about scheme, technique and responsibility.

You cannot seriously think that any poster here is ready to do a better job than any NFL GM.

There is a difference between being smart enough to do something and being trained and ready to do something.

everyone needs to adhere to this.

[Bretsky]

I'm actually pretty sure most internet forums could have run the Raiders better than Al Davis.

DITTO FOR THE COWBOYS IN EARLY ROUNDS UNDER JJ

[woodbuck27]

Woodbuck, these men are paid professionals who watch these college prospects 320 days out of the year, if not more. Full time, not part time. They have game tape, not You Tube highlights, access to practices and coaches. Can interview players and their family and conduct background checks. Mike Trgovac knew he liked Boyd from college tape a year ago. And that is the coach, who does do this only part time. Was anyone here aware of him, and watching his game tape last year? A junior in college?

They also have access to professional coaches to answer questions about scheme, technique and responsibility.

You cannot seriously think that any poster here is ready to do a better job than any NFL GM.

There is a difference between being smart enough to do something and being trained and ready to do something.

pb.... I appreciate your loyalty and undieing support for Ted Thompson and his staff.

I don't mean to give anyone here a shocking heart attack or otherwise cause any anxiety or other illness .... To cause any poster to rise up in some silly temper tantrum or otherwise tirade; but Yes.

I seriously believe that members of Packerrats could better the draft Class that TT and his Draft Team procured for the Green Bay Packers in this draft.

I most certainly believe we could do that but to get down to the brass tacks of that. It would be a foolish waste of time to commit one's time to working an exercise to do so as such would be moot.

We might do that 'only' as a fun exercise to see how it turns out entering the 2016 season. The Packerrats MOCK DRAFT 2013 Vs TT and his Draft Staff's results last week. We could archive our results if individula posters elected such exercise.

I would suggest one rule.That whomever enters a Mock can 'only use' our original eight (8) picks. #26,#55;#88;#122.#159;#167 Compensatory;#193;#232.

GO PACKERS!