Packers Draft

[RashanGary]

That's one way to disagree with me.

Rodgers had the greatest season a QB has ever had with Newhouse starting every game at LT.

Last year, when Bulaga went down, the crisis help went to the right side (Lang and Barclay)


The other Newhouse "performance trend" points I've made too often to repeat, but he's not the big crisis for us. Our OL got worse with the loss of Wells and Bulaga. It wasn't a crisis before that.

[RashanGary]

thirty1,

Did the Newhouse crisis in 2011 prevent us from being one of the most dominant offenses in NFL history? Also, please expand on that crisis, show how it prevented our offense from performing. Lastly, if he is starting, would you expect his play to be better or worse than 2011 (his first year starting?) He does have 32 NFL starts at LT under his belt since the beginning of that season. He is only 25 years old this year.

[woodbuck27]

The others were drafted prior to the 2010 season, meaning they've been on the roster for 3 years - pretty good for a late round pick, IMO. Adding a year to that raises the bar considerably - I doubt you'll find more than one or two other teams that meet the criteria:
-drafted in 4th round or later
-drafted in 2009 or earlier
-still with original team.

Other players (Bush, Goode, Masthay) may have originally been on other teams, but are still late rounders and show the value of those picks on a roster.

Masthay's a punter. Brett Goode is a Long Snapper and both seem secure.

CB Bush has had value primarily on ST's. How much longer that lasts, is anyone's guess. Maybe TT was looking for a ST player to replace Jarrett Bush?

Our team needs prior to this draft 'as a priority' were:

#1... 3-4 'Rush' DE (Datone Jones); #2 ... SS*; and chose 2/3 priorities between 3-4 OLB; OL and RB. That leaves ** the other.

After that it was (** the other) and WR.

TT started the draft with 8 picks and traded down to raise that total to 12; traded up for RB J. Franklin to end up with 11 picks in his draft class.

* He did get a CB (Micah Hyde, Iowa) that might be converted to safety? Otherwise he might have neglected his #2 priority and 'yes' he feels very comfortable with his position at DB.

TT did select at OLB, OL, RB and WR. Other that at RB the question is of quality and that at the other positions.

TT did one more thing I can't agree with.

He neglected a third Rd. pick at #88, that might have been used to pick a solid player for us after he passed on DT Sylvester Williams for DE Datone Jones @ # 26. TT had solid options at #88. He bypassed ...ignored them.

After he went OT with #109>>> he selected a fella that I had on my map>>> OT J.C. Tretter. I was 'again' surprized Guiness with that pick.

I thought that I saw several better options at #122, and exclusively at the LT position. I want to withhold a final opinion on that pick. I discovered something in my files I need to look closer at.

Hey Guiness. Here's the bottom line. I am positive that I saw a better way for TT and our team. I do not mean that in any sense of the word 'arrogance'. I do not mean that as any insult to Ted Thompson. He did it his way, as he had to and that ... the best he could. I'm sure too that like me TT's going over it all. He's seen 'a better way' yesterday. Better still>>>today. That's what competant managing is all about. It's never ending, always improving your team.

His better way can always improve. The mere suggestion or references I read in here from posters; that Ted Thompson couldn't be wrong is pure hogwash. Nonsense or naive posting... as Ted Thompson himself would laugh at that.

I put my time into this draft. As another poster commented. I'm well read and matters NFL/football. Yes... I'm well read. This is a tad more than a simple hobby for me. I love this stuff. I apply all that to a perspective on how the Green Bay Packers might improve. I placed an enormous effort and focus on this draft. I dare say that few at Packerrats were more dedicated to that focus. I did that to ensure I knew how close TT was to truly getting it right.

I try to give all that to Packerrats. Am I sure of his results? Noone really is sure of his results and this draft class. Alot of that will now depend on Coach McCarthy and his staff. On Dom Capers and his group of coaches on the defensive side of the ball.

I don't need to prove common sense. I don't need to dispell ignorance or condemnation in any sense.

I don't know where we're (you and I) are at? RE: Exact numbers of men on our Packers roster, within a certain category. I certainly do know this.

Wist43 and my points (which 'by the way' reflect an obvious concern, based in simple observation) are not far off >>> to bang on. I sure hope that the toughness on the Green Bay Packers shows up in 2013.

That alot of TT's and MM's and the Packers Coaching staff's hopes and plans come through. If that's not the case. That San Francisco 49ers or Seattle Seahawks or Atlanta Falcons are Super Bowl bound this season. The good news to date.

The Green Bay Packers are right up there in the Power Ranking. It was #6 in the ranking I saw today.

Here's the real bottom line and the one that shouldn't seperate any Packer fan, 'of course' all ego aside. Ahhhh EGO the worst curse here:

GO PACK GO !

[wist43]

It's possible. Anything is possible.

Schwenke would have become the top center immediately, whereas Johnson - even if he is the next DD or Colston - might become the #3 WR in a year or two. This isn't denying the potential we got in the seventh, it's pointing out the greater talent at a position of greater need that we passed up on in the third. And nobody has yet to provide a good reason why it was a good idea to do so. I try to have an open mind about it but the logic isn't there.

Seriously, is anyone happy about starting the season with EDS at center and Johnson on the sidelines except when we go 4 wide? It didn't have to be that way. But that's the way it's turned out. The draft is over now, so now is the time for us to be asking these questions. It's a good debate. I just don't see the logic to support what Ted did.

We have 8 years of evidence to look at.

We can all see the high round hits - but as has been hashed out in other threads, it is illusory to think that TT is a late round savant - b/c his record, upon closer examination really isn't very good.

All of the homers give TT max credit for any draft choice that sticks on the roster - but b/c the draft and street FA are our only means of player procurement, of course the roster is going to be stacked with those guys - whether they are legit starters, or even rosterable players - or not.

What's happening, all TT is accomplishing, is that he's constantly turning over the bottom of the roster - "mining for bums" I call it (Fritz has some different ideas about what this process is - my innocence dashed in a flash).

AGAIN, if this is your only means of player procurement - you must be landing starters out of this process. Yes, you must land at least 22, and I don't think that's asking too much. Since your odds of hitting on earlier round choices are much better - and TT has hit on many - then that helps lower the number of starters you must procure later in the draft, and in FA.

Solid starters from the early rounds: (offense) Rodgers, Matthews, Bulaga, Cobb, Nelson, Jones, Finley; (defense) Raji, Matthews, Burnett, Hawk; (probable, but too early to say for sure) Heyward, Perry, House.

All tolled, that's 14 players. You only need to get 8 more players out of other means. After 8 years, we have 3 guys from lower rounds in previous drafts that are starting, and belong in an NFL lineup (Sitton, Lang, and Bishop). Jolly would be on that list too, but he's a huge question mark. The only other 2 guys that could fall into that catagory would be Newhouse and CJ Wilson - both of whom need to be replaced in the lineup, so I don't consider them hits.

Over the past 8 years we've drafted in rounds 4-7, and developed into starters on our team - legitmate starters - 3 guys.

The jury is still out on last years late round guys, but they can't be evaluated yet. So, to date - that's the number you homers have to defend, if you're going to chortle on about the wisdom of TT's approach. The numbers say we have 3 guys out of 48 picks.

I don't want to hear a bunch of crap about a guy who had a cup of coffee - or someone like Newhouse who needs to be replaced. They're in the lineup b/c their on the roster, not b/c they belong there. At best Newhouse is a backup. As I said, we need starters - not more camp fodder.

[Gunakor]

Can't say I know much at all about how Tretter will do if placed at center actually. Its pure speculation by me so far that that's even what he was drafted for. I've also heard Bakhtiari can play center and McCarthy just said Lang can play center. Seems like there are lots of good options even if none of them are our personal draft crushes.

I'm sure Lang could play center, but he's already a starting guard. Not sure if Bakhtiari can play center, I'll take MM's word for it. But even if he can play the position, it's not his position.

It remains to be seen if Bakhtiari, even if he can play center, would be better than EDS. And EDS isn't a center to begin with. I'm not looking for options, I'm looking for upgrades. Options is something Green Bay has had plenty of over the last several seasons, though many times none of the options are ideal. My fear is that we have found ourselves having 3 C rated players at the position, and I'd rather have 1 A or B rated player than 3 C rated players.

I'm with Wist 100% on this one. Enough with the versatility crap. Find positional starters, not utility backups. We have enough of those already. Bakhtiari and Tretter and EDS might be able to play center, but they are not centers. Want a center, draft or sign a center, don't draft or sign a tackle and ask him to play center. Enough is enough. How many more EDS's do we need?

[3irty1]

thirty1,

Did the Newhouse crisis in 2011 prevent us from being one of the most dominant offenses in NFL history? Also, please expand on that crisis, show how it prevented our offense from performing. Lastly, if he is starting, would you expect his play to be better or worse than 2011 (his first year starting?) He does have 32 NFL starts at LT under his belt since the beginning of that season. He is only 25 years old this year.

Newhouse is good enough to win with, that much is proven. The crisis of it is that we have our worst starting offensive lineman (when they're all healthy) playing at our most important position. I think with more reps and such he could eventually be enough of a tactician to be starter calibre in pass protection but I'm not sure it'd be worth it because of how little he offers in the running game. He's done enough for the franchise that he deserves a fair fight in camp but I'm very much in favor of putting him up against some stiff competition... and I'm not so sure we have stiff competition without a healthy Sherrod. Maybe Bakhtiari.

[wist43]

This is the same argument I made in the other thread.

None of you homers could put a dent in the argument - all you could do was try to change the criteria and accuse me of having unreasonable expectations. I don't think the argument I have laid out above is unreasonable.

We have holes in our lineups on both sides of the ball, and we are lacking effective depth. Rodgers is covering for a lot of sins - including a dismal defense. TT addressed 2 holes (DE and RB), and ignored several others (LT, C, NT, ILB - we need help everywhere).

Bottom line, I don't think this draft improved us appreciably b/c TT refused to pull the trigger on guys like Schwenke, Williams, Patton, Lemonier, Winters, et al. Instead we got the lightest T in the draft, the circus freak from Colorado, and a LB'er that ran a blistering 4.91, 40.

We need quality, not quantity, out of the draft. Go out and round up your quantity from undrafted street FA's - guys like Tramon Williams and Will Shields were outstanding finds.

[3irty1]

I'm sure Lang could play center, but he's already a starting guard. Not sure if Bakhtiari can play center, I'll take MM's word for it. But even if he can play the position, it's not his position.

It remains to be seen if Bakhtiari, even if he can play center, would be better than EDS. And EDS isn't a center to begin with. I'm not looking for options, I'm looking for upgrades. Options is something Green Bay has had plenty of over the last several seasons, though many times none of the options are ideal. My fear is that we have found ourselves having 3 C rated players at the position, and I'd rather have 1 A or B rated player than 3 C rated players.

I'm with Wist 100% on this one. Enough with the versatility crap. Find positional starters, not utility backups. We have enough of those already. Bakhtiari and Tretter and EDS might be able to play center, but they are not centers. Want a center, draft or sign a center, don't draft or sign a tackle and ask him to play center. Enough is enough. How many more EDS's do we need?

EDS has backed up a guard spot for us before but has spent the majority of his time in the NFL as a center. I think he is a center to begin with and was starting to look like a long term answer. As it stands today we've got competition for him in camp, a few different backup options for him, and possibly a more athletic Matt Birk clone to groom behind him. Maybe I shouldn't be but I'm comfortable with that right now.

[Gunakor]

This is the same argument I made in the other thread.

None of you homers could put a dent in the argument - all you could do was try to change the criteria and accuse me of having unreasonable expectations. I don't think the argument I have laid out above is unreasonable.

We have holes in our lineups on both sides of the ball, and we are lacking effective depth. Rodgers is covering for a lot of sins - including a dismal defense. TT addressed 2 holes (DE and RB), and ignored several others (LT, C, NT, ILB - we need help everywhere).

Bottom line, I don't think this draft improved us appreciably b/c TT refused to pull the trigger on guys like Schwenke, Williams, Patton, Lemonier, Winters, et al. Instead we got the lightest T in the draft, the circus freak from Colorado, and a LB'er that ran a blistering 4.91, 40.

We need quality, not quantity, out of the draft. Go out and round up your quantity from undrafted street FA's - guys like Tyrone Williams and Will Shields were outstanding finds.

Disagree with NT and ILB. Upgrades there would have been nice, but Raji and Hawk are at the very least starter quality - even if they aren't superstars. Ditto for LT, although Newhouse is only marginally starting quality and should be easy enough to upgrade from. RB, DE, and C were the only 3 positions where I looked at the roster and couldn't find even one starting quality player. Ted whiffed on center big time, but came up huge at the other 2. I'm not sour on the draft as a whole, I just think we could have found a serviceable starting quality player at the 3rd position of desparate need and have failed to do so. It's my only complaint from this draft. But it's a rather huge complaint.

[HarveyWallbangers]

It's possible. Anything is possible.

Schwenke would have become the top center immediately, whereas Johnson - even if he is the next DD or Colston - might become the #3 WR in a year or two. This isn't denying the potential we got in the seventh, it's pointing out the greater talent at a position of greater need that we passed up on in the third. And nobody has yet to provide a good reason why it was a good idea to do so. I try to have an open mind about it but the logic isn't there.

What happens if Tretter turns out to be better than Schwenke? What happens if Tretter turns out to be better than Schwenke, and Johnson is more than a camp body? Certainly not outside of the realm of possibility. Thompson has a way of surprising us. Jolly, Bishop, Sitton, Lang, Newhouse, etc. were all 4th round or later selections who turned out to be better than many players at their positions that went ahead of them and were projected to be better. I'd also add House. I think his future looks brighter than many of the corners drafted a round or two before him, provided he gets over his injury.

[Gunakor]

What happens if Tretter turns out to be better than Schwenke? What happens if Tretter turns out to be better than Schwenke, and Johnson is more than a camp body? Certainly not outside of the realm of possibility. Thompson has a way of surprising us. Jolly, Bishop, Sitton, Lang, Newhouse, etc. were all 4th round or later selections who turned out to be better than many players at their positions that went ahead of them and were projected to be better. I'd also add House. I think his future looks brighter than many of the corners drafted a round or two before him, provided he gets over his injury.

Johnson probably makes the 53. He won't unseat Nelson or Cobb for one of the top 2 spots. I'd bet a year's salary on that. He'll become the #3 when James Jones leaves for greener pastures, but until then he's stuck at #4. The other WR they drafted is a camp body, practice squad candidate maybe.

Tretter might become a decent offensive lineman, but he's not a center. Schwenke is. After 8 years of drafting specifically left tackles, you'd think we'd have found long term starters at every OL position if that was a workable strategy. It's clearly not. If we need a center, we draft a bloody center. No, Tretter won't be a better center than Schwenke. But he's probably a better tackle than Schwenke is.

[pbmax]

This is the same argument I made in the other thread.

None of you homers could put a dent in the argument - all you could do was try to change the criteria and accuse me of having unreasonable expectations. I don't think the argument I have laid out above is unreasonable.

We have holes in our lineups on both sides of the ball, and we are lacking effective depth. Rodgers is covering for a lot of sins - including a dismal defense. TT addressed 2 holes (DE and RB), and ignored several others (LT, C, NT, ILB - we need help everywhere).

Bottom line, I don't think this draft improved us appreciably b/c TT refused to pull the trigger on guys like Schwenke, Williams, Patton, Lemonier, Winters, et al. Instead we got the lightest T in the draft, the circus freak from Colorado, and a LB'er that ran a blistering 4.91, 40.

We need quality, not quantity, out of the draft. Go out and round up your quantity from undrafted street FA's - guys like Tramon Williams and Will Shields were outstanding finds.

Drafting for need is a fools errand. Ask Mike Sherman.

If there are questions about Schwenke (and there would seem to be since he was a 3rd round prospect) and he can't play Guard, that adds to the risk. Wasn't he the one who played fast and quick but lacked power?

No one here is dealing with the full set of data. No one has interviewed any of the players. No one has access to a criminal background checks or drug tests. No one has talked privately to the kid's college coaches.

Remember the Jerry Jones photo with his draft board in the background? There were very few players with 3rd round grades or better compared to the list from draft sites. What if Schwenke graded out as a 5th round prospect to the Packers. To take him means leaving other, better players on the board?

Last word. Each poster will remember the one pick they called and wished the Packers selected. But will any of them remember the other five they were wrong about? No one forgets Ted's errors.

[Gunakor]

Fine, not Schwenke. Someone else that played the position as a starter in college then. An actual center, not a left tackle being converted to center. Ted didn't draft any centers at any point of any round in any draft during his entire tenure here. The result is what we see on our roster as it stands today. It's absolutely infuriating. You can't just keep drafting left tackles and expect to put together an entire offensive line using just left tackles. As good as he's been providing talent at most positions on this team he is an utter failure when it comes to the offensive line.

[Zool]

Last word. Each poster will remember the one pick they called and wished the Packers selected. But will any of them remember the other five they were wrong about? No one forgets Ted's errors.

Selective amnesia is a bitch and we're all geniuses.

[KYPack]

Everyone is right about TT's MO.

The starting line were all tackles in college.
Newhouse, Lang, EDS, & Bulaga were all LT's.
Josh Sitton was a RT.

But so what?

Who cares if a guy was a cornerback and is now our starting center.

As long as the cat can play.