Neal The Tweener

[mraynrand]

PB, what do you think the major adjustment the Packers will make and what the counter the Niners will use? Both teams have been planning for this game for 6 months.

[wist43]

They double team two of the lineman and the 3rd (DE/OLB) is weakside. The DON'T BLOCK the playside DE. Its not about controlling the LOS, its about assignments and speed.

The single drum in your one man band is broken. Despite having seen the physical and dominant Green Bay Packers D line destroyed by the smaller, althletic and mobile Broncos O line in the 1997 Super Bowl, you still want us to think you can manhandle any offensive line strategy and succeed.

Ask Gilbert how being beefy worked. Ask Dotson and Reggie about how their length allowed them to dominate. They got worked by the smaller and more mobile line.

Its patience, assignment and execution football (speed always helps). No amount of hand waving over toughness, size or dominance changes that fact.

Non traditional offenses are DESIGNED to neutralize an opponents natural advantage. You don't bother with this offense if all you want to do is win one on one battles on the LOS. Its built to eliminate the need.

That's a bunch of crap max...

The ZBS used by the Broncos was nothing short of dirty - and ask Gilbert, the first thing he'll tell you is Mark Schlereth should be publicly executed. I think Schlereth still has a restraining order against Gilbert. The way they cut on the backside is the reason Gilbert never walked right again - and I think they've made rule changes to deal with that.

As for your contention that defending the pistol is about speed as opposed to being able to control the LOS - again BS. Yes, they may leave the playside DE unblocked - but that's where he has to be disciplined and assignment sure - we're in agreement there. But if you have DL on the field who can 2-gap effectively, and at least neutralize those double teams, then you've controlled the LOS, and if Kapernerfucker does go ahead and hand it off to Gore, Gore is going exactly 2.1 yds - if he doesn't hand it off, Kapnerfucker is going for -1.3 yds b/c the DE, or OLB stayed home, did his job, and put Kapnerfucker on his ass.

To me, that is controlling the LOS.

That said - what DE?? In Capers scheme, what DE?? In his vaunted 2-4, there is no DE.

As it is, we only have one 2-gap DL on the roster; Raji gets washed out; and nobody is assignment sure or disciplined - and that is almost all on Capers.

I don't know who you are trying to apologize for, but if it's Capers, you've lost that battle before I've fired the first shot at you.

[Guiness]

That's a bunch of crap max...

The ZBS used by the Broncos was nothing short of dirty - and ask Gilbert, the first thing he'll tell you is Mark Schlereth should be publicly executed. I think Schlereth still has a restraining order against Gilbert. The way they cut on the backside is the reason Gilbert never walked right again - and I think they've made rule changes to deal with that.

I'd be curious to watch an old Denver game with someone who understands the rules as they pertain to inline blocking (I know I don't) and see how many of their 'blocks' would result in penalties today - even before the change to peel-back blocks this year.

[Harlan Huckleby]

I think we need to see some real games before deciding that Neal can be a stand-up linebacker. It could be that offensive coordinators will find weaknesses in his game and abuse him.

[Guiness]

I think we need to see some real games before deciding that Neal can be a stand-up linebacker. It could be that offensive coordinators will find weaknesses in his game and abuse him.

If Raji can successfully drop into coverage, I'm sure Neale will be fine

[bobblehead]

I'd be curious to watch an old Denver game with someone who understands the rules as they pertain to inline blocking (I know I don't) and see how many of their 'blocks' would result in penalties today - even before the change to peel-back blocks this year.

I have no idea what rule got changed, but I can tell you one thing. You can not block a player below the waist who is engaged by another player. Never could. If Gilbert can't walk right, its because he didn't have the technique to defeat a chop block while not engaged....or the refs weren't throwing flags they should have. The rule was in place then and now.

[Harlan Huckleby]

If Raji can successfully drop into coverage, I'm sure Neale will be fine

Of course when Raji drops in the middle he is covering a zone, to put it kindly. His job might also be described as imitating a big tree stump.

Pass coverage, yes, but the linebacker has responsibility for more space than a DE against runs. Will Neal have the instincts to recognize wide runs, or will he be another Erik Walden?

I'm hopeful that Neal will be a contributor somewhere, he's on large side of a "tweener" so is fine on defensive line if that is the best spot for him.

[Guiness]

I have no idea what rule got changed, but I can tell you one thing. You can not block a player below the waist who is engaged by another player. Never could. If Gilbert can't walk right, its because he didn't have the technique to defeat a chop block while not engaged....or the refs weren't throwing flags they should have. The rule was in place then and now.

One rule change would be the ban on 'clipping' that came in '99. There's no skill involved in throwing yourself at a guy's knees from behind, and no defense against it.

[pbmax]

PB, what do you think the major adjustment the Packers will make and what the counter the Niners will use? Both teams have been planning for this game for 6 months.

That's going to be the fun of that first game. The Niners have some options as they could open with plays that counter what they expect from Capers and if at all successful revisit the basic read option later in the game. Even the scrape technique the Packers tired to use (and failed esp. in the second half) has a counter.

They could try conventional running, more like they did with Alex Smith at QB in the first game and vary off that.

I don't think they want Kap in the pocket five steps deep trying to do three reads yet, though he may be closer to that now with another offseason.

I think 49ers stay with the run game and try to catch the Packers sneaking everyone closer to the LOS on play action. Then try to pass deep with 2 patterns. If I am Capers I open in base and freely deploy whatever Neal is designed to do with the Nickel. I presume its some kind of big nickel package. But I haven't a clue who comes out of the game for him. The only reason to put Neal in the game is to stay big against the run and provide alternate pass rush. Matthews isn't coming off the field so he will be elsewhere, blitzing, covering Vernon Davis or spying I haven't any idea yet.

[pbmax]

Kapernerfucker does go ahead and hand it off to Gore, Gore is going exactly 2.1 yds - if he doesn't hand it off, Kapnerfucker is going for -1.3 yds b/c the DE, or OLB stayed home, did his job, and put Kapnerfucker on his ass.

To me, that is controlling the LOS.

Even Ngata had trouble escaping that double team and Gore ran roughshod over them in the Super Bowl. The Raven had success in the first half by using the unblocked OLB to force a give and sending the ILBs and safety up to force immediately. That pulls someone out of coverage and CK had some success throwing the ball against it, but he was off target early.

Raji (who wants to be quick and penetrate, has had trouble with this) and Pickett have to occupy the two blockers and keep them off the ILBs but they won't be tackling Gore on read option. The give is essentially an on tackle play.

That said - what DE?? In Capers scheme, what DE?? In his vaunted 2-4, there is no DE.

On several plays, including the TD from CK, they were in Eagle Oakie and had three DL in there (Wilson most often).

I will say this, I am not sure Eagle Oakie is the best alignment to have facing that play. Even if Raji stymied the double team, by virtue of his alignment at 3 tech, the Guard and Tackle had an angle on him and that left a huge hole to his right. Had Kap given to Gore, Walden was tied up with Walker and Jones would have had an acre of ground to cover one on one. Hawk got caught up in the middle lost somehow.

Maybe this is part of the Neal thing, but having a DT at 3 tech on the playside of read option is probably not ideal. We'll see.

[Maxie the Taxi]

Great discussion, even though most of it is over my head. The one thing I know for sure is that the 1st game will indeed be interesting. Too bad the Pack can't play the Niners three or four weeks into the season so they'd be able to see what San Fran does on offense and how other teams defense it.

[mraynrand]

The Raven had success in the first half by using the unblocked OLB to force a give and sending the ILBs and safety up to force immediately.

I kinda figured the Packers might do something similar - try to force the action from the start - force CK to declare to the side they want - into Matthews if they can. But they have to do it with zone - and Matthews and whoever is forcing can't blow it. Trouble is, what down and distance do they deploy that and it all falls apart if they can't stop the run. Only worried about 3rd and long if they man cover.

I feel like what I just wrote is garbage. I don't have a good feel at all about what's going to happen.

[wist43]

Even Ngata had trouble escaping that double team and Gore ran roughshod over them in the Super Bowl. The Raven had success in the first half by using the unblocked OLB to force a give and sending the ILBs and safety up to force immediately. That pulls someone out of coverage and CK had some success throwing the ball against it, but he was off target early.

This is why drafting Brandon Williams when he was available in the 3rd round was so important. For one, Pickett is going to hit the wall sooner rather than later - and having 2 legit 2-gap DL would go a long way toward shutting down SF's running game, or any teams running game.

The first thing I would look to shut down against that alignment would be the give to Gore - that is just fundamental football to me; control the LOS on every snap, and that allows you do what you need to do elsewhere. Capers simply does not view DL play in that way.

Capers is very unsound in what he does up front - everyone notices the mess in the back end b/c receivers run free against us more than any other team - it's so obvious even my wife can see it; but for my money, the number 1 reason Capers should be fired is how he assembles the front six - I don't even consider that we have a front seven, so I'm just going to stop using the term in relation to Capers defense.

Raji (who wants to be quick and penetrate, has had trouble with this) and Pickett have to occupy the two blockers and keep them off the ILBs but they won't be tackling Gore on read option. The give is essentially an on tackle play.

The ILB's have to honor their responsibility inside on read option, but we don't have any DL that can anchor. On Kapnerfuckers 56 yd run, Raji got blown off the line with a simple shove, Walden had no clue what he was doing; and Woodson took himself out of the play with false steps. Capers is the one who put those guys in those positions to fail.

Capers has misused Raji since the day the Packers drafted him - if I'm Raji, I'm running for the exit unless they fire Capers by the end of the season. I don't think Jones has a clue what kind of mess he's been drafted into.

On several plays, including the TD from CK, they were in Eagle Oakie and had three DL in there (Wilson most often).

I will say this, I am not sure Eagle Oakie is the best alignment to have facing that play. Even if Raji stymied the double team, by virtue of his alignment at 3 tech, the Guard and Tackle had an angle on him and that left a huge hole to his right. Had Kap given to Gore, Walden was tied up with Walker and Jones would have had an acre of ground to cover one on one. Hawk got caught up in the middle lost somehow.

On Kapnershitheads 56 yd run, Raji was at 5T, DE - and simply got shoved out of the way... maybe his assignment was the inside gap, and the combination of his responsibility and the offensive play call contributed to his being blown away so easily, I don't know - but playing Raji in that way against the Niners was a recipe for disaster; all 3 DL needed to be 2-gapping, and keep the LB's free to flow to the ball. Of course we don't have DL capable of doing that - so we end up with the mess we got handed to us.

Maybe this is part of the Neal thing, but having a DT at 3 tech on the playside of read option is probably not ideal. We'll see.

Not drafting Brandon Williams when they had the chance will haunt this team for a long time - b/c even next year, after Capers is hopefully fired - I don't think TT will do anything about addressing our lack of 2-gap players... which is insane considering we play a 2-4 most of the time.

Notice which team did snap Williams up?? The Ravens.

The Ravens are a defensive minded team - the Packers are not. They improved their defense, the Packers did not.

[pbmax]

I kinda figured the Packers might do something similar - try to force the action from the start - force CK to declare to the side they want - into Matthews if they can. But they have to do it with zone - and Matthews and whoever is forcing can't blow it. Trouble is, what down and distance do they deploy that and it all falls apart if they can't stop the run. Only worried about 3rd and long if they man cover.

I feel like what I just wrote is garbage. I don't have a good feel at all about what's going to happen.

I know the feeling. The problem with forcing the give is that unless you pull the safety down early, those big lineman are going to disrupt or slow the ILBs at some point and Gore will be gone. Kind of like that Adrian Peterson play right though a hole over right tackle just one millisecond ahead of Jones closing the hole. The Ravens stopped CK running, but Gore was killing them.

And once CK settled down, he started to find holes, including VD, in the single safety coverage. Unless you want Gore or don't fear the pass, you have to be patient front side and get penetration from someone backside to hit the QB if he decides to wait or throw.

Here is another thing Neal could achieve at OLB and its precisely what Walden couldn't. If Neal is OLB and scraping (crashing inside) and the 49ers do their alteration to get a blocker on him (usually H-Back), Neal could bury that TE/H-back where Walden was dancing. Do that, and the man advantage dries up.

Frightening thing there is that CK is headed out wide.

[Guiness]

Frightening thing there is that CK is headed out wide.

I still have trouble believing a pro team will continue to send their franchise QB out wide.

CK and RW are making relative peanuts. Washington has more invested in RGIII, but still not money that even approaches the franchise QB tender. Heck, it doesn't even approach the franchise TE number! So they're playing with house money, and will continue to run these guys around, although the Redskins have already made noises about slowing that down. Will teams keep this up when these players sign their second contract? Will they last until their second contact?

So many NFL rules over the years were about protecting the quarterback.