Pink Elephant in the room

[Freak Out]

Yep.

[pbmax]

Look, they cocked it up. Time to move on.

No doubt. But its inaccurate to compare the qualities (such as they were) of last year's line (or the last couple years) to this year's line. The tackles are completely different (in terms of style, strength and weakness).

[mraynrand]

No doubt. But its inaccurate to compare the qualities (such as they were) of last year's line (or the last couple years) to this year's line. The tackles are completely different (in terms of style, strength and weakness).

noted

[Fritz]

No doubt. But its inaccurate to compare the qualities (such as they were) of last year's line (or the last couple years) to this year's line. The tackles are completely different (in terms of style, strength and weakness).

What's odd so far is that the line seems better at run blocking than previous versions of the o-line. And conventional wisdom suggests that a team that can run decently should be able to pass block better, since it takes the constant pressure to pass block off the line. The defense can't just anticipate pass and pin its ears back - they've got to think run, too.

Yet this o-line can't pass block for shit so far. Ten sacks in three games? A myriad of pressures?

Why might this be so? What happened to "if they could only run better, the pass blocking would be easier" idea?

I see the o-line as the key to the Lions' game. And John Kuhn's health is especially important this week. The Lions' defensive interior is stout, stout, stout. The Pack needs to keep Farley and Suh from caving in the center on every pass play. Kuhn will play a large role in calling protections and helping out, more inside than out, perhaps.

[pbmax]

What's odd so far is that the line seems better at run blocking than previous versions of the o-line. And conventional wisdom suggests that a team that can run decently should be able to pass block better, since it takes the constant pressure to pass block off the line. The defense can't just anticipate pass and pin its ears back - they've got to think run, too.

Yet this o-line can't pass block for shit so far. Ten sacks in three games? A myriad of pressures?

Why might this be so? What happened to "if they could only run better, the pass blocking would be easier" idea?

I see the o-line as the key to the Lions' game. And John Kuhn's health is especially important this week. The Lions' defensive interior is stout, stout, stout. The Pack needs to keep Farley and Suh from caving in the center on every pass play. Kuhn will play a large role in calling protections and helping out, more inside than out, perhaps.

I call this the Derek Loville Effect *.

It SHOULD be easier to run against all the six man boxes the Packers see and this year it finally seems to be happening. That is the O line doing its job.

However, teams are not fearful enough of Lacy/Starks/Franklin/WaiverPickUp to stop using six man boxes versus the Packers 3WR-1TE-1RB personnel. They are still pass rushing like maniacs in most pass or neutral situations. Which is why sometimes, despite known intentions, its foolish to pretend the running game will eventually get them out of that look. Defenses are happy to surrender the yards on the ground. At some point, the O line must protect and Rodgers has to beat a pass D designed to limit him.


*Roughly the time period when Derek Loville looked like an All-Pro back for San Fran because defenses refused to worry about him and instead doubled every SF receiver and attempted to give Steve another concussion on every pass drop.

[Fritz]

Unless, I suppose, the Lacy/Starks/Franklin/waiver guy become so dangerous that they begin converting some 2nd and six's or third and five's?

That is, if the number of yards given up out of a six man front actually begins to result in first downs from longer runs, then teams will start putting another guy down in the box.

Correct?

But if that doesn't happen, Rodgers and company have to beat the six man fronts with passes, anyway - which means better pass blocking is necessary.

Hurry back, John Kuhn?

[pbmax]

Yes. Either easy and often first downs or long runs to get in scoring position (or scores) will change it. But averaging 4.2 ypc won't.

Unless, I suppose, the Lacy/Starks/Franklin/waiver guy become so dangerous that they begin converting some 2nd and six's or third and five's?

That is, if the number of yards given up out of a six man front actually begins to result in first downs from longer runs, then teams will start putting another guy down in the box.

Correct?

But if that doesn't happen, Rodgers and company have to beat the six man fronts with passes, anyway - which means better pass blocking is necessary.

Hurry back, John Kuhn?

[swede]

I call this the Derek Loville Effect *.

It SHOULD be easier to run against all the six man boxes the Packers see and this year it finally seems to be happening. That is the O line doing its job.

However, teams are not fearful enough of Lacy/Starks/Franklin/WaiverPickUp to stop using six man boxes versus the Packers 3WR-1TE-1RB personnel. They are still pass rushing like maniacs in most pass or neutral situations. Which is why sometimes, despite known intentions, its foolish to pretend the running game will eventually get them out of that look. Defenses are happy to surrender the yards on the ground. At some point, the O line must protect and Rodgers has to beat a pass D designed to limit him.


*Roughly the time period when Derek Loville looked like an All-Pro back for San Fran because defenses refused to worry about him and instead doubled every SF receiver and attempted to give Steve another concussion on every pass drop.

This reminds me of when a reporter asked Young about a team planning to attack San Francisco's offense by rushing the quarterback. He answered, to the effect of, "Oh you mean this week they are really REALLY going to try to sack me?"

[Guiness]

Yes. Either easy and often first downs or long runs to get in scoring position (or scores) will change it. But averaging 4.2 ypc won't.

You don't think defenses seeing 3rd and 1 or 2 on a regular basis will convince DCs they need to do something about the running attack?

Maybe. I'm really not sure. I tend to think that down and distance would be a nightmare for them, considering MM and Rodgers wiliness to take shots down the field on that down and distance.

[pbmax]

You don't think defenses seeing 3rd and 1 or 2 on a regular basis will convince DCs they need to do something about the running attack?

Maybe. I'm really not sure. I tend to think that down and distance would be a nightmare for them, considering MM and Rodgers wiliness to take shots down the field on that down and distance.

Yes, if there are easy first downs to be had, they will do something about it. But the Packers haven't scored from long distance on the ground much and my sense is, though I have no data, that their scoring plays still mainly involve one or two big pass plays. In other words, not yet.

[run pMc]

Yes, if there are easy first downs to be had, they will do something about it. But the Packers haven't scored from long distance on the ground much and my sense is, though I have no data, that their scoring plays still mainly involve one or two big pass plays. In other words, not yet.

I think "not yet" is the key phrase here. They've only played 3 games, I think by mid-season -- assuming M3 stays committed to a running game -- DC's will have to adjust. Most defenses aren't as stout as SF's or CIN's. Franklin and Starks have showed burst (ripping off 51 yard and 32 yard runs respectively) and if they can threaten defenses and wear them down -- and a guy like Lacy could really do that when the weather starts to turn bad.

10 sacks in 3 games isn't good, but that's identical to what Drew Brees dealt with after 3 games. I think Bakteria and Barclay will get better in their pass sets, the RB pass pro will improve (esp. if Kuhn comes back) and the offense will be fine. Having a threat of a run game will help Rodgers and the play-action game, but they need to work on those turnovers. They have one less turnover in each of the SF and CIN games and this could be a 3-0 team.

I think if they can field a healthy RB between Lacy and Starks they should be able to convert 4th and inches.