Things that annoyed me about the Packers vs Queens game...

[woodbuck27]

I wasn't going to go here but for what it's worth:

7 + 6 (as it turned out) + ( 7 + 3 ) = 23 ALL Tie in Regulation = 'Just OK' and another chance to WIN.

7 +( 8 + 8 ) = 'a 23 all tie' ... Who thinks that way? That's not smart thinking.

You never play for a tie unless it's late in regulation. You certainly don't go there with 11:42 remaining on the clock in the 4th Qtr.

IMO this is best thinking/strategy... given the situation that MM was in after the Eddie Lacy rushing TD:

7 + 7 (a simple convert) + 7 (or if necessary '3' and then a '7') + 3 = 24 and a WIN.

When the score was 23-13 and MM didn't have to decide convert or two Pt. conversion.

He should have simply gone for the single point. That was by far his best or most assured thinking.

Keep it simple:

23-13 >>> missed 2 Pt. conversion >>> 23 -13 >>> +10 = 23-23 tie.

or

23-13 >>> +1 Pt >>> 23-14 >>> +10 = 24-23 PACKERS WIN !

In review:

If this is the question:

Did MM do the correct thing going for that 2 pt. convert after Eddie Lacy scored?

The correct response is:

NO !

In a simple situation >>> keep it simple .... Mike.


GO PACK GO !

[pbmax]

I wasn't going to go here but for what it's worth:

7 + 6 (as it turned out) + ( 7 + 3 ) = 23 ALL Tie in Regulation = 'Just OK' and another chance to WIN.

7 +( 8 + 8 ) = 'a 23 all tie' ... Who thinks that way? That's not smart thinking.

You never play for a tie unless it's late in regulation. You certainly don't go there with 11:42 remaining on the clock in the 4th Qtr.

Prior to the TD to make the game 23-13, the Packers had scored on only 10 of 41 possessions since Rodgers got injured. Several of those scores were FGs.

It is insanity to think you are suddenly going to turn into an offensive juggernaut. McCarthy even said they were calling plays that weren't on the call sheet because they needed something Flynn could execute. And the Defense had not been generating many 3 and outs either. So even at 11:47, time was critical. How many 4th Quarter drives has the D allowed over six minutes in the last few games?

You are not simply playing for a tie, you are maximizing the points you can get when you are in a position to score. Its an added benefit that extending the game would benefit the Packers. But the chief benefit is for the game to still be in doubt with only 2 scoring possessions needed.

[Bossman641]

Prior to the TD to make the game 23-13, the Packers had scored on only 10 of 41 possessions since Rodgers got injured. Several of those scores were FGs.

It is insanity to think you are suddenly going to turn into an offensive juggernaut. McCarthy even said they were calling plays that weren't on the call sheet because they needed something Flynn could execute. And the Defense had not been generating many 3 and outs either. So even at 11:47, time was critical. How many 4th Quarter drives has the D allowed over six minutes in the last few games?

You are not simply playing for a tie, you are maximizing the points you can get when you are in a position to score. Its an added benefit that extending the game would benefit the Packers. But the chief benefit is for the game to still be in doubt with only 2 scoring possessions needed.

+1

With Rodgers and co and a defense that had proven it could get stops or take the ball away I'm a lot more inclined to make it a 9 point game and hope to get a TD and FG to win. Not the case with Flynn and a defense that hadn't stopped the Vikings and has consistently failed in the 4th quarter.

[woodbuck27]

Details:

http://scores.espn.go.com/nfl/playbyplay?gameId=331124009&period=4

Looking beyond that first missed 2-Pt. conversion attempt:

*** Vikings Possession:

Minnesota Vikings at 11:42 Min. Remaining in the 4th Qtr.

DRIVE TOTALS: 5 plays, 22 yards, 2:52 elapsed


*** Green Bay Packers get the ball back at 8:40 remaining in the 4th Qtr

SCORE: 23-13 Vikings.

I'll record the plays here so that you get some idea of how MM ran the offense with Matt Flynn behind center:

1st and 10 at GB 24 (Shotgun) E.Lacy left end to GB 41 for 17 yards (R.Blanton, C.Cook).

1st and 10 at GB 41 (No Huddle, Shotgun) M.Flynn pass short left to J.Boykin to MIN 49 for 10 yards (C.Cook).

1st and 10 at MIN 49 (No Huddle) E.Lacy left end pushed ob at MIN 43 for 6 yards (C.Cook).

2nd and 4 at MIN 43 (No Huddle, Shotgun) M.Flynn pass short left to J.Boykin to MIN 36 for 7 yards (C.Cook).

1st and 10 at MIN 36 (No Huddle, Shotgun) M.Flynn pass incomplete short left.

2nd and 10 at MIN 36 (No Huddle, Shotgun) M.Flynn pass short right to J.Jones to MIN 28 for 8 yards (X.Rhodes, A.Cole).

3rd and 2 at MIN 28 (No Huddle, Shotgun) M.Flynn pass short middle to E.Lacy to MIN 27 for 1 yard (A.Cole).

Timeout #1 by GB at 05:23.

4th and 1 at MIN 27 E.Lacy left end to MIN 23 for 4 yards (M.Mitchell).

1st and 10 at MIN 23 (No Huddle, Shotgun) M.Flynn pass short right to E.Lacy pushed ob at MIN 10 for 13 yards (A.Cole).

1st and 10 at MIN 10 E.Lacy right tackle to MIN 10 for no gain (R.Blanton, J.Allen). MIN-L.Guion was injured during the play.

2nd and 10 at MIN 10 (Shotgun) M.Flynn pass short left to E.Lacy to MIN 6 for 4 yards (A.Cole).

3rd and 6 at MIN 6 (Shotgun) M.Flynn pass short right to J.Boykin for 6 yards, TOUCHDOWN.


SCORE: 23 - 19 Vikings

M.Crosby * extra point is GOOD, Center-B.Goode, Holder-T.Masthay.

SCORE: 23 - 20 Vikings


* Comment woodbuck27:

Note that here MM doesn't go for a 2 Point conversion. Here he takes 'the sure single point convert' and looks ahead to another score being 'only' a FG down.


M.Crosby kicks 62 yards from GB 35 to MIN 3. C.Patterson to MIN 21 for 18 yards (D.House, J.Bush).

DRIVE TOTALS: 12 plays, 77 yards, 5:10 elapsed


*** Minnesota Vikings at 3:30 Remaining in the 4th Qtr.

Vikings go 3 and out... 3 plays, - 2 yards, 0:53 elapsed


*** Green Bay Packers at 2:27 MIN GB

1st and 10 at GB 31 (Shotgun) M.Flynn pass short right to J.Jones to GB 40 for 9 yards (X.Rhodes).

2nd and 1 at GB 40 (No Huddle, Shotgun) M.Flynn pass short middle to E.Lacy ran ob at MIN 44 for 16 yards (C.Greenway).

1st and 10 at MIN 44 (Shotgun) E.Lacy right tackle to MIN 40 for 4 yards (A.Cole, B.Robison).

2nd and 6 at MIN 40 (No Huddle, Shotgun) M.Flynn pass incomplete short right.

3rd and 6 at MIN 40 (Shotgun) M.Flynn pass incomplete short left to J.Boykin [B.Robison]. The Replay Assistant challenged the fumble ruling, and the play was Upheld.

4th and 6 at MIN 40 (No Huddle) M.Flynn pass deep left to J.Jones to MIN 12 for 28 yards (M.Sherels) [A.Cole]. Penalty on MIN-E.Griffen, Defensive Offside, declined.

1st and 10 at MIN 12 E.Lacy left end to MIN 12 for no gain (K.Williams, B.Robison).
Timeout #1 by MIN at 01:03.

2nd and 10 at MIN 12 (Shotgun) M.Flynn pass incomplete short left to A.Quarless (L.Guion).

3rd and 10 at MIN 12 (Shotgun) M.Flynn pass short right to J.Boykin to MIN 9 for 3 yards (X.Rhodes).
Timeout #2 by MIN at 00:50.

4th and 7 at MIN 9 M.Crosby 27 yard field goal is GOOD, Center-B.Goode, Holder-T.Masthay. 23 23
M.Crosby kicks 52 yards from GB 35 to MIN 13. T.Gerhart to MIN 30 for 17 yards (A.Mulumba, B.Bostick).

DRIVE TOTALS: 10 plays, 60 yards, 1:41 elapsed

SCORE Tied Up at 23 ALL.


*** Minnesota got the ball back with :46 remaining on the clock.

They ran four pays in :37 seconds and we got the ball back near the end of regulation (:02 Sec.).


So a 23 -23 tie headed to OT. OT ended with the score at 26-26 with both teams trading FG's.



PACKERS !

[woodbuck27]

Prior to the TD to make the game 23-13, the Packers had scored on only 10 of 41 possessions since Rodgers got injured. Several of those scores were FGs.

It is insanity to think you are suddenly going to turn into an offensive juggernaut. McCarthy even said they were calling plays that weren't on the call sheet because they needed something Flynn could execute. And the Defense had not been generating many 3 and outs either. So even at 11:47, time was critical. How many 4th Quarter drives has the D allowed over six minutes in the last few games?

You are not simply playing for a tie, you are maximizing the points you can get when you are in a position to score. Its an added benefit that extending the game would benefit the Packers. But the chief benefit is for the game to still be in doubt with only 2 scoring possessions needed.

pbmax I have no problem with your mind.

I suspect that Mike McCarthy's mind isn't working at all like yours and especially that in a stressful game time situation.

It should have been easy (simple)

OK it's 23-13 and convert or 2 Pts?

CONVERT !

23-14 Vikings

OK then..... add 10 Points.... 24-23 Packers !

Voila !! A Green Bay Packers WIN !

No magical or complicated thinking.

Simple common sense.

Flat out......

MM was 'out to lunch' going for that 2 Pt. conversion.

[Bossman641]

pbmax I have no problem with your mind.

I suspect that Mike McCarthy's mind isn't working at all like yours and especially that in a stressful game time situation.

It should have been easy (simple)

OK it's 23-13 and convert or 2 Pts?

CONVERT !

23-14 Vikings

OK then..... add 10 Points.... 24-23 Packers !

Voila !! A Green Bay Packers WIN !

No magical or complicated thinking.

Simple common sense.

Flat out......

MM was 'out to lunch' going for that 2 Pt. conversion.

You are completely ignoring both the offensive and defensive performances over the past handful of games.

[woodbuck27]

You are completely ignoring both the offensive and defensive performances over the past handful of games.

A simple RULE of THUMB:

Keep it simple.

Believe in that 'simple way'.... no matter what has gone on in the past.

7 + 6 +1 + 10 = 24 = WIN = Simple.

[Guiness]

Prior to the TD to make the game 23-13, the Packers had scored on only 10 of 41 possessions since Rodgers got injured. Several of those scores were FGs.

It is insanity to think you are suddenly going to turn into an offensive juggernaut. McCarthy even said they were calling plays that weren't on the call sheet because they needed something Flynn could execute. And the Defense had not been generating many 3 and outs either. So even at 11:47, time was critical. How many 4th Quarter drives has the D allowed over six minutes in the last few games?

You are not simply playing for a tie, you are maximizing the points you can get when you are in a position to score. Its an added benefit that extending the game would benefit the Packers. But the chief benefit is for the game to still be in doubt with only 2 scoring possessions needed.

This.

I don't know what confused me more - the offense moving down the field, or the stops the defense got in the fourth. After the Packer's first 4th quarter TD, the defense held the Vikings to a single first down, and on Minnesota's next possession, forced a 3 and out. The two times Minnesota had the ball before that, a TD and a FG.

How's that for schizophrenic? Actually, my guess would be an inspired defense, having some confidence the O can do something.

[woodbuck27]

Your point and 'history' has some merit for me.

I made a mistake this past week in the Pro Pickem by ignoring history. Peyton Manning Vs Tom Brady. That certainly cost me.

It's easy to error or make a mistake in judgement and especially in a stressful situation.

We all get there. Mike McCarthy gets there and he demonstrated that clearly; going for that 2 Pt. conversion after Eddie Lacy scored. I especially feel that way with Matt Flynn as his QB.

Keep it rolling...positive.

Take the far easier one (1) point convert.

Set your team at '9' points back (Vikings 23-14 ) and '10' more for the WIN.

Do not risk having your team stuck at 10 points back (by not converting after the six) and more likely playing for a tie in regulation and forcing the game to OT where the outcome could be set in motion by the results of a coin toss.

ie the Packers lose the toss in OT and the Vikings score a TD on their first possession. It's over and we lose.

That's just slightly worse that a tie based in history. Please see my thread on this topic posted today.

[woodbuck27]

This.

I don't know what confused me more - the offense moving down the field, or the stops the defense got in the fourth. After the Packer's first 4th quarter TD, the defense held the Vikings to a single first down, and on Minnesota's next possession, forced a 3 and out. The two times Minnesota had the ball before that, a TD and a FG.

How's that for schizophrenic? Actually, my guess would be an inspired defense, having some confidence the O can do something.

Yes.

That shift to the positive in how the entire team played following the insertion of Matt Flynn.

A credit to MM for that move as late as it was.

PACKERS !

[Bretsky]

Yes.

That shift to the positive in how the entire team played following the insertion of Matt Flynn.

A credit to MM for that move as late as it was.

PACKERS !

Do we realy give MM credit for making the move or wonder what in the heck he was thinking for stubbornly going with Tolzien again ?

I'm more bias than anybody. I was pimping Russell Wilson as the second best QB in Wisconsin when Matt Flynn was our #2. I loved Brooks Bollinger...Darrell Bevell...those three guys had so many intangibles. Heck I even thought Mike Samuel was OK.

While Wilson was the only one with clearly more talent, I just didn't think Tolzien had all the intangibles some of the above had without a ton of time to develop in MM's system. Even then I'm not sure.

Starting Matt Flynn was a no brainer last week...

[woodbuck27]

Do we realy give MM credit for making the move or wonder what in the heck he was thinking for stubbornly going with Tolzien again ?

I'm more bias than anybody. I was pimping Russell Wilson as the second best QB in Wisconsin when Matt Flynn was our #2. I loved Brooks Bollinger...Darrell Bevell...those three guys had so many intangibles. Heck I even thought Mike Samuel was OK.

While Wilson was the only one with clearly more talent, I just didn't think Tolzien had all the intangibles some of the above had without a ton of time to develop in MM's system. Even then I'm not sure.

Starting Matt Flynn was a no brainer last week...

I looked at it this way:

OK start Scott Tolzien but as soon as that game started to go south pull him for Matt Flynn.

When the Vikings scored in the 3rd Qtr. and the score went to Minny 20 - Green Bay 7

The game was 'now' going south.

MM replaced Scott Tolzien with Matt Flynn with 8:22 remaining in the 3rd Qtr.

GO PACK GO !

[pbmax]

pbmax I have no problem with your mind.

I suspect that Mike McCarthy's mind isn't working at all like yours and especially that in a stressful game time situation.

McCarthy said on Monday that he was concerned about getting the ball back 2 more times in the time left. He was doing the same calculation. He reviews the offensive film more than I do and is well aware of both the offensive and defensive shortcomings. He also knows they are running an offense they haven't practiced.

[woodbuck27]

McCarthy said on Monday that he was concerned about getting the ball back 2 more times in the time left. He was doing the same calculation. He reviews the offensive film more than I do and is well aware of both the offensive and defensive shortcomings. He also knows they are running an offense they haven't practiced.

Back to back 2 Pt. converted TD's for a tie with a hold on the Vikings scoring.

Optimistic?

No way Hose. That's strange optimism as I view it.

Take the easy convert and hold the Vikings.

Score 'at least' 10 more points to win 24-23.

That's good and proper optimism.