FOR THOSE WHO HATE CAPERS.....

[pbmax]

nothing's changed.

i wish we'd get back to bump and run no matter who the dc is. al and chuck did it right.

They played a lot of man versus the Bears, didn't they? Everytime I looked at it, it was man outside.

I really think the D is caught, especially in nickel, trying to cover for the 2 man line. Everyone is crashing inside and there is only one guy, the OLB with outside contain. That play the Bears ran with the one RB headed wide for a pitch or something and another getting an inside handoff for an off tackle run is something they will see again. Lattimore got sucked right up into the fake.

[gbgary]

They played a lot of man versus the Bears, didn't they? Everytime I looked at it, it was man outside.

man is one thing but jamming at the line is another. we stopped that few years ago.

[pbmax]

man is one thing but jamming at the line is another. we stopped that few years ago.

That's true, Shields plays press and doesn't jam. TWill occasionally jams but he is no Al Harris.

[call_me_ishmael]

Did Morgan Burnett even ever play next to Collins? Rookie in 2010 w/ torn ACL, Collins career ended game 2 of 2011 against the Panthers. Am I missing something? He played, what, 3 weeks, next to Nick?

[Joemailman]

Did Morgan Burnett even ever play next to Collins? Rookie in 2010 w/ torn ACL, Collins career ended game 2 of 2011 against the Panthers. Am I missing something? He played, what, 3 weeks, next to Nick?

You are close. Burnett got hurt in the 4th game of 2010, and Collins got hurt in the 2nd game of 2011.

[BZnDallas]

As I've said, I haven't watched much football this year - so this year notwithstanding, I did watch the Pitt game, so my same arguments against Capers still stand.

I do not blame the players. I think we have enough talent on def to win. It is Capers job to take that talent, and get max production out of what he has to work with.

In our front seven (six by Capers' way of thinking) we have far more talent invested in the DL; yet Capers insists on playing a 2-4 the majority of the time, or at least a far greater percentage of the time than is warranted. Injuries seem to have made things a mess, but I think the analysis would still stand regardless of the injuries. We're simply not very talented on the 2nd level, i.e. the linebackers.

If Capers is determined to play pass on virtually every down, I would prefer he do it with pressure, crowding the line and showing multiple fronts. He lines up in that static 2-4, and may occassionally bring an exotic blitz, but then he reverts right back to vanilla. Combine that with miscommunications in the back end, and you have a recipe for disaster down in and down out.

Capers has to go. Injuries might be a valid reason to point to for not putting up stellar numbers, but a good DC would find a way to stop the bleeding, and find an identity that is at least somewhat effective with the troops he does have available. In no way has Capers done that. He needs to go.

I agree with all of this Wist... i believe the talent is there... that 2 down lineman defense has to go...

[MJZiggy]

That's true, Shields plays press and doesn't jam. TWill occasionally jams but he is no Al Harris.

Yes, but Al Harris is Al Harris and he's Al Harris for a reason, and part of the reason he's Al Harris is because he was great at knocking receivers off in the first 5 yards...

[woodbuck27]

Yes, but Al Harris is Al Harris and he's Al Harris for a reason, and part of the reason he's Al Harris is because he was great at knocking receivers off in the first 5 yards...

Let me see if I can understand that post:

OK Let A = Al Harris:

So .... A = A = A = A

Eh

[pbmax]

I agree with all of this Wist... i believe the talent is there... that 2 down lineman defense has to go...

Its the standard nickel for all 3-4 teams. The question isn't why does he use it, the question is why is it leaking run yards like never before?

No one expected the success of 2010 to last forever esp. without Howard Green taking up two gaps himself. But its gone too far the other way.

The obvious answer is to scale back its use which has happened the last two years I believe, though only marginally. But its mainly a tool to matchup to 3 WR sets. If you stay base, then a LB or safety is going to be in a mismatch. And given the pass defense in the Packers backend, that is not a good thing. Leaking running plays is bad, but a 30 yard pass play to the nickel receiver against your LB is worse.

[pbmax]

Yes, but Al Harris is Al Harris and he's Al Harris for a reason, and part of the reason he's Al Harris is because he was great at knocking receivers off in the first 5 yards...

And there are very few true bump and run corners left.

[Carolina_Packer]

I wonder if they do tailor what they try and do based on the strength and availability of what they have on the roster, or does he try and do the same things no matter who he has available.

Where is Datone Jones? I didn't expect highlight reel stuff every week, but did expect him to show out a bit more than he did this year. Did Green Bay not know how to use him? Was he ineffective with the chances he had? He looked like a very sudden player at UCLA, and they talked about him play 5 tech (I had visions of Cullen Jenkins), but somehow he seemed invisible. Did he to you guys? Perhaps now that they are starving for creating pressure, they will turn him loose. I just expected some kind of visual proof of why he was drafted in the first round.

[bobblehead]

They played a lot of man versus the Bears, didn't they? Everytime I looked at it, it was man outside.

I really think the D is caught, especially in nickel, trying to cover for the 2 man line. Everyone is crashing inside and there is only one guy, the OLB with outside contain. That play the Bears ran with the one RB headed wide for a pitch or something and another getting an inside handoff for an off tackle run is something they will see again. Lattimore got sucked right up into the fake.

Yep, lot of man today. Also, what wist said is true though. We had 2nd and 3, 2nd and 4, and we lined up in 2-4. Why in earth if you really want to put an extra DB on the field can't we go 3-3 so we have some fatties to stop the fricking run. Early in the season we ran true 3-4 a bit more and we were effective, then we miraculously abandoned it.

[bobblehead]

Yes, but Al Harris is Al Harris and he's Al Harris for a reason, and part of the reason he's Al Harris is because he was great at knocking receivers off in the first 5 yards...

To quote Roy Williams "He is like a gorilla. He latches onto you with those long arms and you are done. You aren't going to run your route properly"

[wist43]

Its the standard nickel for all 3-4 teams. The question isn't why does he use it, the question is why is it leaking run yards like never before?

No one expected the success of 2010 to last forever esp. without Howard Green taking up two gaps himself. But its gone too far the other way.

The obvious answer is to scale back its use which has happened the last two years I believe, though only marginally. But its mainly a tool to matchup to 3 WR sets. If you stay base, then a LB or safety is going to be in a mismatch. And given the pass defense in the Packers backend, that is not a good thing. Leaking running plays is bad, but a 30 yard pass play to the nickel receiver against your LB is worse.

Max, Capers had the 2-4 alignment on the field when Forte ran it in from 1st and goal at the 1!!!

I don't care what personnel the Bears have on the field - they had 3 wides, 2 RB's - you can't play small in goal line defense. As it was, the Bears lined up in the I, and Forte simply walked up the middle for the TD.

More teams may be running a 2-4 in nickel situations, and to be sure it is more of a 4-2 with the outside rushers just being LB's, but you simply can't run that as your base defense - which is what Capers does more often than not. I didn't watch the whole game, but the majority of what I did watch, Capers was in a 2-4 regardless of down and distance - and to only have 2 DL on the field with 1st and goal from the 1?? There's no excuse for that.

[Carolina_Packer]

Dom probably could have run 2-4 on most any down in 1994 with these guys:

Chad Brown RILB, Levon Kirkland LILB, Greg Lloyd ROLB, Kevin Greene LOLB, Rod Woodson LCB, Deon Figures RCB, Carnell Lake SS, Darren Perry FS, Joel Steed NT, Ray Seals RDE, Gerald Williams LDE, Brentson Buckner (rotational) RDE

but in 1994 he wouldn't have had to because it was much more of a running league. You can make hay with the guys above, no matter what scheme you are running because real players can play any scheme because they confront and tackle better, they communicate together better, they maintain their responsibility better and if the play breaks down, they make plays

The 2013 Packers have had injuries for sure, and I won't bother listing the players as you know who they are. The point is that coaches look like a genius when they have the guys I listed above. They look very average to below average when they have what is collectively stocking our defensive roster. It's players; it's always the players. They are the ones good enough or not good enough to make plays, run to the ball, recognize coverages, communicate with teammates, stay in their gap, hustle to make tackes, etc. This defense is not the 1994 Steelers, no doubt. But through a combination of player injuries, being forced to play younger players because of injuries, plus some lack of development of recent draft picks, our defensive fire power is not where it needs to be.

That said, hopefully Capers did try and tailor, perhaps even simplify some of what he did to match the ability/strengths of his available personnel. What he can't do is be in their heads when they are on the field and say, OK, it's time to be tough and tackle properly, this is how you need to react when XYZ happens. Don't get me wrong, I'm willing to let Capers go because we need to do something to try and improve the defense, but I lay blame on our players as much as Capers, but understand that it's easier to change the DC and get a different voice in there. I think we can all agree that we need some better luck with injuries and that we all want to see a Rob Ryan type turn-around with the next DC (assuming M3 changes no matter what happens the rest of the way).