Fix Your Packers

[pbmax]

I do think M3 is still adjusting to the new CBA practice schedule. He admitted in his year end presser that while it was better than last year, he still did not like where they were when camp ended though part of that this year was injuries.

Gotta get that fixed.

[pbmax]

BTW, the defense that Rodgers struggled to adjust to in the playoff game? Mostly Cover 2 man outside.

Granted, he was getting a lot of traffic in the pocket because his tackles were more like turnstiles, but its kinda a theme now, 2.25 years in.

I do not think Lacy, without breakaway speed, can ever be enough threat that the defense will pull that safety up to defend against Lacy first (which is why Starks must continue to get snaps). So the Packers HAVE to protect well enough for Rodgers to pick apart the 2 deep look.

[QBME]

Some coaches push the rules to the edge and some don't even approach the minimum. A team like the packers that relies on youth so much is hurt more by the limited amount you can do as well.

Also, just cuz you can't use pads doesn't mean you can't run full speed drills without contact so players have to react faster and think in real game terms. I also wonder if you can keep guys on the practice field (unpadded) for extra hours. Is there a limit on hours as well?

It doesn't appear that there is a limit to non padded practice hours. Following is from the latest CBA:

ARTICLE 24 REGULAR SEASON AND POSTSEASON PRACTICES
Section 1. Practice Rules:
(a) During the regular season, padded practices for all players shall be limited to a total of fourteen, eleven of which must be held during the first eleven weeks of the regular season, and three of which must be held during the remaining six weeks of the regular season. The Club may choose the days of the week on which such practices shall be held. Subject to the foregoing rules, each Club may hold two padded practices during the same week during one week of the regular season, provided that such week falls within the first eleven weeks of the regular season.
(b) Clubs participating in the postseason may hold one padded practice per week, on a day of the Club’s choosing, commencing with the week following the Club’s last regular season game.
(c) For purposes of this Article and Article 23, a “padded practice” shall be defined as a practice in which players are required to wear helmets and shoulder pads, in addition to any other equipment required by the Club, subject to the exceptions set forth in Article 23, Section 6(b).
(d) On days when padded practices are permitted under Subsection (a) above, on-field Team activity for all players shall be limited to a maximum of three hours per day, including “first period” (i.e., stretching and calisthenics), provided that (i) players may participate in on-field activities with their position coaches for a period not to ex-ceed thirty minutes, prior to the three-hour maximum on-field period; and (ii) any walk-through of reasonable and customary duration (for purposes of this Subsection, such walk-through to be no helmets and walking pace) that is conducted prior to or after the three-hour maximum on-field period shall not count against that limit. The three-hour time limit described above shall begin as soon as position coaches begin to coach players on the field, subject to provisos (i)–(ii) in this Subsection.
Section 2. Bye Weeks: During any regular season bye week period occurring during the term of this Agreement, players will be given a minimum of four consecutive days off. Such four-day period must include a Saturday and a Sunday unless the Club is scheduled to play a game on the Thursday following the bye week, in which case players may be required to report to the Club on the Sunday preceding the Thursday game. In such an event, the four-day period shall be Wednesday through Saturday. Any injured player may be required to undergo medical or rehabilitation treatment during such four-day period provided that such treatment is deemed reasonably necessary by the Club’s medical staff.
Section 3. Enforcement: Any violation of Section 1 of this Article shall be governed by the same procedures, and shall be subject to the same fines and fine procedures, as set forth in Article 21, Section 8, except that the “Other Penalties” set forth in Article 21, Section 8(d)(ii) shall not apply to any violation of this Article.

[SMBASS]

BTW, the defense that Rodgers struggled to adjust to in the playoff game? Mostly Cover 2 man outside.

Granted, he was getting a lot of traffic in the pocket because his tackles were more like turnstiles, but its kinda a theme now, 2.25 years in.

I do not think Lacy, without breakaway speed, can ever be enough threat that the defense will pull that safety up to defend against Lacy first (which is why Starks must continue to get snaps). So the Packers HAVE to protect well enough for Rodgers to pick apart the 2 deep look.

I agree with what you're saying pb but IMO we also still need a TE who has the ability to beat and get open against a Cover 2. Finley was supposed to be that guy but due to injuries/limited playing time, etc. it never happened. We need a smart TE who has some speed and athletic ability along with the smarts to find holes in zones and get open down the seams against the cover 2.

[pbmax]

I agree with what you're saying pb but IMO we also still need a TE who has the ability to beat and get open against a Cover 2. Finley was supposed to be that guy but due to injuries/limited playing time, etc. it never happened. We need a smart TE who has some speed and athletic ability along with the smarts to find holes in zones and get open down the seams against the cover 2.

Agree. I actually hope its not Finley because even when he played last year he was not a vertical threat. He looked every bit like a guy trying to survive until his second contract.

Who knows what he will do once he gets it.

[mraynrand]

BTW, the defense that Rodgers struggled to adjust to in the playoff game? Mostly Cover 2 man outside.

Granted, he was getting a lot of traffic in the pocket because his tackles were more like turnstiles, but its kinda a theme now, 2.25 years in.

I do not think Lacy, without breakaway speed, can ever be enough threat that the defense will pull that safety up to defend against Lacy first (which is why Starks must continue to get snaps). So the Packers HAVE to protect well enough for Rodgers to pick apart the 2 deep look.

Or they have to have a check down option. One that Rodgers can go to quickly. The Mantra over the past several years has been the vertical routes, but they take time. Even in the SF game, the Packers ran deep verticals on a third and 18 late, with no check down options. And yet, several times they just scorched the Niners with a quick check down. I don't know all the nuances of making sure the LBs are cleared out, etc. but they need something to turn sacks and incompletions into at least 1-2 yard gains. Improved line play is 1, and shorter patterns is 2 (meaning, Cobb for example doesn't have to run to the marker before turning around - how about a 8 yard pattern and come back)

[mraynrand]

Agree. I actually hope its not Finley because even when he played last year he was not a vertical threat. He looked every bit like a guy trying to survive until his second contract.

Well, his first concussion came against the perfect cover two beater. He would have caught it and had a big gain if not for the head shot. Unlucky or too risky?

[pbmax]

Well, his first concussion came against the perfect cover two beater. He would have caught it and had a big gain if not for the head shot. Unlucky or too risky?

And those crossing routes are what he seemed to be asking to run rather than seam routes that threaten a safety, presumably to avoid taking a beating from the safety.

He put himself in harms way by trying to get low because he was slow about it. You have to be ready to absorb that hit. Bobble might be right here that experience would teach him that, though there aren't too many head shots in practices.

I think Finley spends too much time planning his future rather than living in the present, football wise.

EDIT: I am talking about his spinal injury and Rand mentions the concussion hit from earlier. The hit that hurt his spine was a crossing route of some sort (or something in the short center of the field), which he seemed to favor running lately. The concussion was on a seam route that forced to safety to honor the middle of the field.

[mraynrand]

He put himself in harms way by trying to get low because he was slow about it. You have to be ready to absorb that hit. Bobble might be right here that experience would teach him that, though there aren't too many head shots in practices.

Especially with Kevin Greene now out of the picture. Is Brian Cushing a free agent??

[red]

Or they have to have a check down option. One that Rodgers can go to quickly. The Mantra over the past several years has been the vertical routes, but they take time. Even in the SF game, the Packers ran deep verticals on a third and 18 late, with no check down options. And yet, several times they just scorched the Niners with a quick check down. I don't know all the nuances of making sure the LBs are cleared out, etc. but they need something to turn sacks and incompletions into at least 1-2 yard gains. Improved line play is 1, and shorter patterns is 2 (meaning, Cobb for example doesn't have to run to the marker before turning around - how about a 8 yard pattern and come back)

i've been thinking and saying for awhile that our routs take way to long to develop. its like every play called takes 4 seconds to develop and we give the QB 3 seconds of protection

where did the quick slants go?

[bobblehead]

It doesn't appear that there is a limit to non padded practice hours. Following is from the latest CBA:

ARTICLE 24 REGULAR SEASON AND POSTSEASON PRACTICES
Section 1. Practice Rules:
(a) During the regular season, padded practices for all players shall be limited to a total of fourteen, eleven of which must be held during the first eleven weeks of the regular season, and three of which must be held during the remaining six weeks of the regular season. The Club may choose the days of the week on which such practices shall be held. Subject to the foregoing rules, each Club may hold two padded practices during the same week during one week of the regular season, provided that such week falls within the first eleven weeks of the regular season.
(b) Clubs participating in the postseason may hold one padded practice per week, on a day of the Club’s choosing, commencing with the week following the Club’s last regular season game.
(c) For purposes of this Article and Article 23, a “padded practice” shall be defined as a practice in which players are required to wear helmets and shoulder pads, in addition to any other equipment required by the Club, subject to the exceptions set forth in Article 23, Section 6(b).
(d) On days when padded practices are permitted under Subsection (a) above, on-field Team activity for all players shall be limited to a maximum of three hours per day, including “first period” (i.e., stretching and calisthenics), provided that (i) players may participate in on-field activities with their position coaches for a period not to ex-ceed thirty minutes, prior to the three-hour maximum on-field period; and (ii) any walk-through of reasonable and customary duration (for purposes of this Subsection, such walk-through to be no helmets and walking pace) that is conducted prior to or after the three-hour maximum on-field period shall not count against that limit. The three-hour time limit described above shall begin as soon as position coaches begin to coach players on the field, subject to provisos (i)–(ii) in this Subsection.
Section 2. Bye Weeks: During any regular season bye week period occurring during the term of this Agreement, players will be given a minimum of four consecutive days off. Such four-day period must include a Saturday and a Sunday unless the Club is scheduled to play a game on the Thursday following the bye week, in which case players may be required to report to the Club on the Sunday preceding the Thursday game. In such an event, the four-day period shall be Wednesday through Saturday. Any injured player may be required to undergo medical or rehabilitation treatment during such four-day period provided that such treatment is deemed reasonably necessary by the Club’s medical staff.
Section 3. Enforcement: Any violation of Section 1 of this Article shall be governed by the same procedures, and shall be subject to the same fines and fine procedures, as set forth in Article 21, Section 8, except that the “Other Penalties” set forth in Article 21, Section 8(d)(ii) shall not apply to any violation of this Article.

Wow...remind me to be careful what I ask

[Carolina_Packer]

Defense: Could be Capers gone or insist on scheme alteration

So far this has gotten the most votes. Everyone wants to hang this on Capers, and ultimately it's easier to fire a DC than replace all the average to sub-par players. I've made this argument before; this is not the 1994 Steelers defense that Capers is coaching (you can look up that incredible defensive roster). This is a defense that is trying to develop a lot of young guys (when are they not?), while asking some guys to change and learn new positions, while fielding an average DL that do not help the LB as they should in the scheme, while dealing with some lack of development of some defenders, while dealing with a rash of injuries to test the depth of the defensive roster.

Does anyone take TT to task regarding the defensive roster he has created? Perhaps it's time to look at the scouting staff that are helping TT stock this defensive roster. Assuming that Capers job is safe (could still get let go, I guess), keeping him is going to shine a bigger spotlight on TT's ability to retool the defensive roster and the methods by which he stocks the roster now that he has a franchise QB that will always keep the team in the hunt. Yes, keep the cap healthy, please. But, also please try and field the best team possible where we don't have to rely on guys to play who should be backups or special teamers. You can fire the cook, but you still have someone else buying the ingredients that go into creating the meal.

If you were the cook, would you be happy with the ingredients?

I'm sick of teams like Seattle and SF, both of whom retooled their teams after 2010 and are now dominant defenses. I get that we have enough success where we draft in the 20's pretty consistently, but there are multiple rounds and college free agency too. It's time to get more Danny Travathon's and less Jerron McMillian's on the defensive roster. When you draft Jerel Worthy in the 2nd round and he's 6-2 310 or so, what is the plan for him? Let's just draft talent and see where it fits. Come on man! Stop with the excuses and get it fixed!!!

[pbmax]

Defense: Could be Capers gone or insist on scheme alteration

... snip ...

I'm sick of teams like Seattle and SF, both of whom retooled their teams after 2010 and are now dominant defenses. I get that we have enough success where we draft in the 20's pretty consistently, but there are multiple rounds and college free agency too. It's time to get more Danny Travathon's and less Jerron McMillian's on the defensive roster. When you draft Jerel Worthy in the 2nd round and he's 6-2 310 or so, what is the plan for him? Let's just draft talent and see where it fits. Come on man! Stop with the excuses and get it fixed!!!

San Fran was retooling long before 2010 as so has a deep reservoir of talent on D. Seattle has had a remarkable turnaround and good luck with a lot of mid round picks.

The Packers have had very mixed results from their first and second round picks (Clay versus Perry, Jones, Burnett and Neal) and the best comparables to Seattle's mid round picks might be the UDFAs (Shields and Williams). Best midrange guy on D roster, Daniels, would be more fearsome if people were healthy (Clay), found a home (Perry and Neal) and/or Jones with another year of seasoning.

Those pieces would probably work OK in nickel and dime pass D if the run D would stop collapsing. There are just too many moving parts and not enough out right studs.

[Fritz]

I think that Carolin Packer has hit on something. And it's not just that maybe Ted is missing on his draft picks, it's that Capers' scheme seems to demand a lot of people doing exactly what they're supposed to, over and over and over. That would call for a defense that plays together for years, that has a core of players in each position group that have been around a long time. New guys ought to be worked in slowly.

But that's not how Ted runs things, as we all know. He relies heavily, very heavily, on rookies and second year guys. Maybe that is just not compatible with the scheme Capers runs.

So the question for me is this: is there a scheme that is more conducive to using lots and lots of inexperienced but athletic guys?

Another possibility is this: that the scheme can work with young guys - as long as they're not rookies or first-time-at-a-position guys (like Neal). However, the margin for error is much slimmer, and so when you have to play Hyde instead of Hayward, when you have to play House instead of Shields, when you have to play Neal instead of Perry, or Mulamba instead of Neal or Perry, you've got problems.

One more thought occurs to me: if this team had a dominating defensive line - in a 3-4, I suppose that means guys who can eat up blocks all day long without being moved an inch, would that free up your more inexperienced players? Would it allow rookie or second year linebackers the time and space to make plays? Would it make up for the problem of having to play so many rooks on defense?

[Joemailman]

I don't buy the whole "You need guys who have been in the system for years" argument. The best defense Capers had here was in 2010, when they were only in the 2nd year of playing the 3-4. The 2010 team had to rely on rookies. Sam Shields was the nickel back, which means he was practically a starter. Frank Zombo started half the games. What that defense had was playmakers on the back end. Collins, Woodson and Tramon were all Pro Bowl players.

That team also got healthy at the end of the year. Matthews and Cullen Jenkins were both 100% at the end of the year which was not the case for much of the year. Contrast that with the 2013 team which lost Jolly and Matthews (again) at the end of the year, and lost Shields and Neal during the playoff game.

The last thing I would point out is that the 2 worst starters on the 2013 team (Brad Jones and Jennings) are veterans in this defense. The Packers had 2 gaping holes in their starting lineup which need to be filled, whether by rookies or veterans.