KG Steps Down

[Bretsky]

So, when our defense rebounds to finish next year ranked #12 with all the same players (basically) are all the over reactors on this board going to conclude that KG was the problem?

If the defense finished #12 my guess is I'll note that TT finally addresses some glaringly obvious shortcomings after we have won the Super Bowl

[Joemailman]

I come down on the side of Greene having not been given enough to work with. Since being given Matthews, he hasn't been given much. Perry, who's been hurt, didn't want to play OLB in the first place. You build the core of your team in the middle rounds, and there TT has ignored the OLB position. Since 2009, TT has had 22 picks in rounds 2-5, and hasn't used 1 to strengthen the OLB position. Mike Neal doesn't count. He was drafted to play DE. The picks by position:

OL: 5
RB: 4
DL: 4
DB: 5
TE: 2
WR: 1
ILB: 1

I wouldn't be surprised if Greene got tired of having so little to work with.

[MJZiggy]

Of course Palter has to nick pick every comment I make. Besides Matthews what talent has he had to work with at OLB? It's unfair to judge Perry's progression when he can't even stay healthy. Stop trying to start an argument for the fuck of it. Before Greene walked away I didn't hear one person question his coaching ability.

That brings up an interesting thought. How do you judge talent in a football squad? We know that Matthews is talented. But with the rest of the guys, how much of their performance is talent, and how much of it is coaching? How many times have we seen a guy play lights out, get a contract from a different team and not play as well? Oftentimes we make excuses for that, saying he's gotten older, he's slipping or whatever, but I think "how much talent" a coach has to work with is a lot more subjective than we like to think it is.

[woodbuck27]

Really? Before Lacey was drafted, the Packers had guys like Brandon Jackson, Alex Green, the sixth round pick James Starks, Ryan Grant (who was obtained for a sixth round pick). How is that front line talent? Not a one was a first round pick, and people on this board bitched about TT moving back and back and "settling" for Lacey.

I don't like the slant the JSO is offering which is pure speculation - that Greene may have left because he was given so little talent to work with.

The only other position group I can think of that has two first-rounders to work with is the offensive line, and both Sherrod and Bulaga have been unable to stay on the field, as Perry has.

The article I'm thinking of is the one in which the author - Silverstein, I think - mentions all these dregs that Greene was given to work with, as if TT invested nothing in the position and Greene was tired of it. Buried deep in the article is the "oh, by the way, yeah, he had Matthews and another first rounder,Perry, but was hurt." So somehow that one doesn't count. And Neal, a former second round pick - I suppose he doesn't count, either.

Look at other position groups. How many of the receivers are first rounders? How many of the cornerbacks? The tight ends?

No position group can be made up of all first and second rounders. So to pretend that maybe the Packers drove Greene away because they expected him to make silk purses out of sows' ears is too much.

Sure, these guys are mostly converting from DE, but as others have pointed out, that's typical in the NFL in general as few college teams run a 3-4.

My criticism is not of Greene. Not at all. I wish he were still coaching; I liked him.

But I am criticizing the way the JSO is trying to slant this, as another aggregeous error made by TT and MM that drove Greene away.

So what's new Fritz?

Have the Wisconsin Sports Journalists ever been accused of "pounding too much sand up Green Bay Packer managements ass's" ?

Your points are solid. Then there's this:

The problem as has been identified as TT and MM and the coaching staff trying to insist upon drafting ie ... DE's and turning (developing) them into OLB's. Insisting on using square pegs in round holes.

Any prospect is fraught with risk; but why? take it to::

Back in your own face risk? TT has to make it easier on himself. If it's simply him and picking BPA..by the way that's NOT really the case. TT is hopefully more rational than going #21 overall >>> Offense (ie TE) in this next draft. If a legitimate help ie DT, ILB or Safety is sitting right there 2-3 picks lower on his board.

The press/media and Kevin Greene's decision to depart Green Bay:

For the media to even speculate why Kevin Greene left beyond what he's already expressed. Is bullshit speculation that isn't uncommon in Wisconsin. That decision is driven by a need to take too much to the dramatic side and sell that to a craving to remain ignorant "or an over emotional drama hungry public.

Drama sells !

We are members here @ Packerrats to discover better. Packerats may do so awkwardly and bang heads to get there but we will arrive in terms of most issues.

That's why above all else we should all be grateful for this cutting edge opportunity.

Packerrats.

GO PACK GO !

[pbmax]

I come down on the side of Greene having not been given enough to work with. Since being given Matthews, he hasn't been given much. Perry, who's been hurt, didn't want to play OLB in the first place. You build the core of your team in the middle rounds, and there TT has ignored the OLB position. Since 2009, TT has had 22 picks in rounds 2-5, and hasn't used 1 to strengthen the OLB position. Mike Neal doesn't count. He was drafted to play DE. The picks by position:

OL: 5
RB: 4
DL: 4
DB: 5
TE: 2
WR: 1
ILB: 1

I wouldn't be surprised if Greene got tired of having so little to work with.

He is responsible for TWO starting spots, four roster spaces. The OL is 5 and 10. DB is 4 and 9. DL is 3 and 6-8.

Of other groups, here are the number of first rounders in each:

OLB: 2
RB: 0
TE: 0
WR: 0
ILB: 1

Two first round picks. For two starting spots. Only the QB position has a higher percentage. If he left because not enough attention is focused on his two spots in the draft, he will be awfully disappointed in every other team in the League. Spoon is on the radio here weekly and he seems like a nice, funny, self-deprecating guy. But his head on some issues about the Packers is just chock full or nonsense.

[bobblehead]

Bennett caught my interest in 2005. He started the season with Green, Davenport and Fisher. Davenport went to IR and Rashard Lee was signed. Green went to IR and Walt Williams was signed. Fisher was hurt and Gado was signed. Williams went to IR. Noah Herron was signed. Rashard Lee went to IR. Gado was hurt and missed the last two games. Green began the seasons as the starter/primary ball carrier, then it was Davenport, then Fisher, then Lee, then Gado, then Herron. RB's were dropping so fast that an article described how several weeks in a row Bennett met newly signed ball carriers on Tuesday and had to have them ready to play significant snaps on Sunday. The article described how he simplified the passing game for them, and for the most part they did well in protection.

Two years later he began working with Brandon Jackson, who was a terrible blocker, and made him a solid third down back by the time he left as a free agent. With WRs the last three years he weathered a lot of injuries last year and this, has Boykin playing better than I hoped, and seems to get the best out of his guys. He Just seems like an effective coach all the way around, looking at it strictly from the outside as a fan.

I am a huge fan of Bennet as well. Edgar has done it with different guys over several years. That isn't an accident.

BTW, to those that think its the RB not the OL, I refer you to the season that all those guys looked good toting the stone.

[bobblehead]

Really? Before Lacey was drafted, the Packers had guys like Brandon Jackson, Alex Green, the sixth round pick James Starks, Ryan Grant (who was obtained for a sixth round pick). How is that front line talent? Not a one was a first round pick, and people on this board bitched about TT moving back and back and "settling" for Lacey.

I don't like the slant the JSO is offering which is pure speculation - that Greene may have left because he was given so little talent to work with.

The only other position group I can think of that has two first-rounders to work with is the offensive line, and both Sherrod and Bulaga have been unable to stay on the field, as Perry has.

The article I'm thinking of is the one in which the author - Silverstein, I think - mentions all these dregs that Greene was given to work with, as if TT invested nothing in the position and Greene was tired of it. Buried deep in the article is the "oh, by the way, yeah, he had Matthews and another first rounder,Perry, but was hurt." So somehow that one doesn't count. And Neal, a former second round pick - I suppose he doesn't count, either.

Look at other position groups. How many of the receivers are first rounders? How many of the cornerbacks? The tight ends?

No position group can be made up of all first and second rounders. So to pretend that maybe the Packers drove Greene away because they expected him to make silk purses out of sows' ears is too much.

Sure, these guys are mostly converting from DE, but as others have pointed out, that's typical in the NFL in general as few college teams run a 3-4.

My criticism is not of Greene. Not at all. I wish he were still coaching; I liked him.

But I am criticizing the way the JSO is trying to slant this, as another aggregeous error made by TT and MM that drove Greene away.

They slanted it 3 different ways in the same article. This is known as throwing shit against a wall. When one of the 3 turn out they can say "I told you so".

[bobblehead]

He is responsible for TWO starting spots, four roster spaces. The OL is 5 and 10. DB is 4 and 9. DL is 3 and 6-8.

Of other groups, here are the number of first rounders in each:

OLB: 2
RB: 0
TE: 0
WR: 0
ILB: 1

Two first round picks. For two starting spots. Only the QB position has a higher percentage. If he left because not enough attention is focused on his two spots in the draft, he will be awfully disappointed in every other team in the League. Spoon is on the radio here weekly and he seems like a nice, funny, self-deprecating guy. But his head on some issues about the Packers is just chock full or nonsense.

But pb...remember what has been argued here. Perry doesn't count. Neither does Neal. Pretty much anything that supports your point doesn't count for some odd reason. I think Mathews doesn't count either because he has a bad hammy. When you discount the 2 first rounders and the second rounder for the 4 roster spots the man has been given shit to work with. TT should be ashamed of running off KG.

[woodbuck27]

I come down on the side of Greene having not been given enough to work with. Since being given Matthews, he hasn't been given much. Perry, who's been hurt, didn't want to play OLB in the first place. You build the core of your team in the middle rounds, and there TT has ignored the OLB position. Since 2009, TT has had 22 picks in rounds 2-5, and hasn't used 1 to strengthen the OLB position. Mike Neal doesn't count. He was drafted to play DE. The picks by position:

OL: 5
RB: 4
DL: 4
DB: 5
TE: 2
WR: 1
ILB: 1

I wouldn't be surprised if Greene got tired of having so little to work with.

A well researched therefore honest post:

Congratulations Joe.

Repped.

[woodbuck27]

That brings up an interesting thought. How do you judge talent in a football squad? We know that Matthews is talented. But with the rest of the guys, how much of their performance is talent, and how much of it is coaching? How many times have we seen a guy play lights out, get a contract from a different team and not play as well? Oftentimes we make excuses for that, saying he's gotten older, he's slipping or whatever, but I think "how much talent" a coach has to work with is a lot more subjective than we like to think it is.

An excellent question mj.

I have to meditate on that one. You're challenging me.

[woodbuck27]

He is responsible for TWO starting spots, four roster spaces. The OL is 5 and 10. DB is 4 and 9. DL is 3 and 6-8.

Of other groups, here are the number of first rounders in each:

OLB: 2
RB: 0
TE: 0
WR: 0
ILB: 1

Two first round picks. For two starting spots. Only the QB position has a higher percentage. If he left because not enough attention is focused on his two spots in the draft, he will be awfully disappointed in every other team in the League. Spoon is on the radio here weekly and he seems like a nice, funny, self-deprecating guy. But his head on some issues about the Packers is just chock full or nonsense.

Nick Perry wasn't ever a LBER before being pushed into that slot by TT and Dom capers
Before TT drafted Nick Perry we were concerned about TT picking him. . . Dom Capers scheming with a 3-4 'D' MAX and [B]2-Front ' LESS RUN DEFENSE ...Nickel 'D'.

If it's a 3-4 Base then show a 3-4 Base and stop weakening that predictably. It's so obviously weak and predictable the Opponents HC and his offensive coach's get a break playing the Green Bay Packers.

Our little 'd' deefeeense...in 3 Seasons has gone from Weakening >>> Weak >>> Porously WEAK !

The Green Bay Packers deefeeense is easy for any talented Offense to run over and victimize with the pass.

As it's going ....next season isn't going to see it achieve much growth and with the situation and UFA.

See CB Shields ... See 4 players on the DL ...."the Hunchback is exhausted ringing ALARMS"

[pbmax]

Nick Perry wasn't ever a LBER before being pushed into that slot by TT and Dom capers
Before TT drafted Nick Perry we were concerned about TT picking him. . . Dom Capers scheming with a 3-4 'D' MAX and [B]2-Front ' LESS RUN DEFENSE ...Nickel 'D'.

Well, you probably want to inform Demarcus Ware, Terrell Suggs, LaMarr Woodley, Shaun Phillips and Robert Mathis to stop playing OLB so well since each had to affect a change in position during their NFL careers from DE to OLB.

Changing a position is a common occurrence in the NFL, though its far more common in college. Coversions at 3-4 OLB are the rule, not the exception at the Pro level.

When the defensive players in the Packers scheme are termed mis-matches or poor fits, it is not the position that is being questioned, its the match of skills to responsibilities. Perry has the skills they require at OLB. Whether he succeeds is up to him and his coach.

[pbmax]

Packer Report @PackerReport 15h
Among the numbers, #Packers allowed 6.74 yards per rush with D. Jones on the field. Second-worst among NFL DEs.

Maybe the Jones/Neal switch was more Jones related than Neal.

[Joemailman]

Packer Report @PackerReport 15h
Among the numbers, #Packers allowed 6.74 yards per rush with D. Jones on the field. Second-worst among NFL DEs.

Maybe the Jones/Neal switch was more Jones related than Neal.

Wasn't Jones mainly on the field during obvious passing situations? If so, wouldn't the other defensive personnel on the field (nickel and dime package), possibly have as much to do with the numbers as the play of Jones? How often did he actually line up at DE?

What did you mean by the Jones/Neal switch?

[pbmax]

Wasn't Jones mainly on the field during obvious passing situations? If so, wouldn't the other defensive personnel on the field (nickel and dime package), possibly have as much to do with the numbers as the play of Jones? How often did he actually line up at DE?

What did you mean by the Jones/Neal switch?

Can't read the article, so I can only guess at the details. Jones played mainly in pass rush situations in nickel and dime. Yes, a player's +/- kind of ranking does depend on others but that is kind of the point, to see what combos work well together (just guessing they are presenting plus minus info here) and where a weakness occurs. So Jones plus something leaks yardage worse than other combos. Staff then need to determine if its situational (draw play on 3rd and 18) or from his assignments.

Toward the end of the season, in nickel and dime, Neal would move to DT and Jones played standup DE. Jones did this versus the 49ers but it was due to injuries at OLB in that case.