Official Non NFC North NFL News 2014 (Unofficial Johnny Manziel)

[Patler]

It will be awhile until we see the fastest player on the field playing the QB position again if ever.

We probably saw it happen before Michael Vick....with Randall Cunningham.
He was typically the fastest guy on the field, too.

[Joemailman]

There was a time I thought maybe Jared Lorenzen would revolutionize how the QB position was played.

[mraynrand]

It was enough to hand Green Bay their first ever home playoff lost...I think Kaep took notes from that game.

You should know better than this. Vick wasn't the decisive factor in the playoff game. Packer injuries and mistakes were. At the same time, Vick was incredible in a close loss for the ATL in the season opener.

[pbmax]

We probably saw it happen before Michael Vick....with Randall Cunningham.
He was typically the fastest guy on the field, too.

Yes but he falls into the category of all the older players and also includes Steve Young. No one, after seeing them run, wanted a running QB in the modern NFL passing era. I don't think Cunningham was the fastest guy on the field, but he was faster than other QBs and players his size. He was big and played a little Rothliesberger ball while he was waiting to throw.

But mainly, no one copied the Philly offense and Cunningham approach. And the 49ers wanted Young to stop scrambling and sit in the pocket and go through his progressions.

I would say Vick was more an intermediary step than revolutionary. He was a more skilled passer than Cunningham, whose main talent aside from his legs was a huge arm. Reid wanted to adapt his offense to him and so did Chip Kelly until he was injured. And Dan Reeves developed a Vick friendly system, though it was highly controlled. Those were the first occasions in the modern era that an offense was fundamentally altered for a QB who wanted to run as much as pass.

And that is the legacy he could argue he passes on to CK, Newton and Wilson.

[Just Jeff]

"Back in the day" there were QBs who "scrambled" and racked up rushing yardage when pass plays broke down, but the first QBs I can remember for whom running was a frequent option were Greg Landry and Bobby Douglas. Landry was a decent passer, Douglas not so much, but Douglas rushed for just short of 1,000 yards in a 14 game schedule. In their most productive rushing seasons, Douglas' and Vicks' total rushing stats were similar, but in carries per game and rushing yards per game, Douglas comes out on top:

Douglas in 14 game schedule in 1972 - 141 carries, 968 yards.
Vick in a 16 game schedule in 2006 - 123 carries, 1039 yards.

In addition, you have to remember how incredibly terrible the Bears where back then. Douglas ran against 10 in the box many times. The last game in his 968 season, it was 11 men in the box. T'he whole stadium knew he was going for 1000 yard and he pretty much ran every play. The leading receiver had 14 catches for 380 yards that season. When Douglas wasn't gaining his 968 yard, the formidable Jim Harrison was racking up 622 yards for the season.
The Bears now are better than then, just not by much

[pbmax]

Douglas was definitely more of a runner than passer.

in 1972, 75c 198a 37.9% 1246yds

What was their offense in 1972? Single wing?

He seems to fall into the category that for a QB, he was an excellent runner. I think 100 out of 100 teams would take Vick, even at a 70 QB rating.

[RashanGary]

The rules, where the QB is protected far more than the past is making qbs who can move more valuable as their injury risk is going down. That has more to do with it than Vick. Also, I have been influenced by Patlers history lesson and would say, "Vick didn't revolutionize anything"

[Patler]

Yes but he falls into the category of all the older players and also includes Steve Young. No one, after seeing them run, wanted a running QB in the modern NFL passing era. I don't think Cunningham was the fastest guy on the field, but he was faster than other QBs and players his size. He was big and played a little Rothliesberger ball while he was waiting to throw.

But mainly, no one copied the Philly offense and Cunningham approach. And the 49ers wanted Young to stop scrambling and sit in the pocket and go through his progressions.

I would say Vick was more an intermediary step than revolutionary. He was a more skilled passer than Cunningham, whose main talent aside from his legs was a huge arm. Reid wanted to adapt his offense to him and so did Chip Kelly until he was injured. And Dan Reeves developed a Vick friendly system, though it was highly controlled. Those were the first occasions in the modern era that an offense was fundamentally altered for a QB who wanted to run as much as pass.

And that is the legacy he could argue he passes on to CK, Newton and Wilson.

Cunningham was very fast. Per an article I saw today, he claims to have run a 4.29 in the 40 once, and was actually timed at 4.4, which is impressive since QBs did not work out for running speed and quickness like they do today. In his prime Vick was certainly faster and quicker than Cunningham ever was, but Cunningham was pretty impressive for his time.

I don't agree that Vick was a more skilled passer. Going on memory yesterday, I would have said Cunningham was the better passer; but after looking at their career stats, they are remarkably similar in completion %, int. %, avg/comp., QB rating, etc. Even their best seasons stats for passing are quite similar.

Vick may have taken the concept of a running QB to a more productive level, but he was by no means the originator of the concept.

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[Patler]

Douglas was definitely more of a runner than passer.

in 1972, 75c 198a 37.9% 1246yds

What was their offense in 1972? Single wing?

He seems to fall into the category that for a QB, he was an excellent runner. I think 100 out of 100 teams would take Vick, even at a 70 QB rating.

Certainly anyone would take Vick over Douglas. My point was simply that as a QB he had a season in which he ran more frequently than Vick and for more rushing yards per game than Vick, so the amount of running that Vick has done from the QB position has been seen before.

Don't be too condescending of poor Bobby. He is a former Packer!

[Guiness]

Cunningham was very fast. Per an article I saw today, he claims to have run a 4.29 in the 40 once, and was actually timed at 4.4, which is impressive since QBs did not work out for running speed and quickness like they do today. In his prime Vick was certainly faster and quicker than Cunningham ever was, but Cunningham was pretty impressive for his time.

I don't agree that Vick was a more skilled passer. Going on memory yesterday, I would have said Cunningham was the better passer; but after looking at their career stats, they are remarkably similar in completion %, int. %, avg/comp., QB rating, etc. Even their best seasons stats for passing are quite similar.

Vick may have taken the concept of a running QB to a more productive level, but he was by no means the originator of the concept.

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I don't even know that I'd say Vick was more productive. Cunningham was very good in his prime, and the focus of that Eagles offense, and had 3 consecutive seasons around 3500 yards, good for top 10 in the late 80's. Add in his rushing yards, and he was a force.

I don't remember him as being fast, but thinking about it, he must've been of course. He had an amazing arm, I remember some cross field throws where he'd roll out one way, then throw across the field with accuracy and velocity.

What I remember most, and was most surprised by, was his big season in Minnesota, playing jump ball with Moss and Carter going over 1000 yards. I also remember he'd pretty much entirely stopped running the ball at that point, and was mostly a pocket passer! I doubt Vick will ever transition to that.

[Patler]

I don't even know that I'd say Vick was more productive. Cunningham was very good in his prime, and the focus of that Eagles offense, and had 3 consecutive seasons around 3500 yards, good for top 10 in the late 80's. Add in his rushing yards, and he was a force.

I don't remember him as being fast, but thinking about it, he must've been of course. He had an amazing arm, I remember some cross field throws where he'd roll out one way, then throw across the field with accuracy and velocity.

What I remember most, and was most surprised by, was his big season in Minnesota, playing jump ball with Moss and Carter going over 1000 yards. I also remember he'd pretty much entirely stopped running the ball at that point, and was mostly a pocket passer! I doubt Vick will ever transition to that.

Even going back only to Cunningham, the game was different then. Whereas their overall passing stats are somewhat similar, Cunningham had 5 seasons with stats that put him in the top 10 in most categories, and once lead the league in QB rating. Vick has not found his way to the top 10 except an isolated instance or two. The game has gotten easier for throwers, to the point that even Favre's records are not likely to last long even if Manning doesn't break them in the next couple seasons or three. (The TD record could be Mannings this season.)

[pbmax]

Cunningham was very fast. Per an article I saw today, he claims to have run a 4.29 in the 40 once, and was actually timed at 4.4, which is impressive since QBs did not work out for running speed and quickness like they do today. In his prime Vick was certainly faster and quicker than Cunningham ever was, but Cunningham was pretty impressive for his time.

I don't agree that Vick was a more skilled passer. Going on memory yesterday, I would have said Cunningham was the better passer; but after looking at their career stats, they are remarkably similar in completion %, int. %, avg/comp., QB rating, etc. Even their best seasons stats for passing are quite similar.

Vick may have taken the concept of a running QB to a more productive level, but he was by no means the originator of the concept.

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Well a 4.4 would be impressive because I remember his size as much as his speed.

But I don't read the ESPN article as a comment about all of football history. I think he is talking about the present passer situation, although its not explicitly stated, that seems to be the context of the question he was asked.

And I do think, more than any modern running QB, he was the guy who coaches were willing to tailor their offense for. And that was new. The real argument is whether Vick represented a generational upgrade in skills, or if coaches had decided that a franchise QB was more important than a lesser skilled, but traditional, pocket passer.

Interestingly, Cunningham's greatest success came in a system devoted to deep passing in Minnesota.

[Patler]

Interestingly, Cunningham's greatest success came in a system devoted to deep passing in Minnesota.

... and as Guiness pointed out, at a time when he had assumed a more conventional QB playing style.

[Guiness]

Even going back only to Cunningham, the game was different then. Whereas their overall passing stats are somewhat similar, Cunningham had 5 seasons with stats that put him in the top 10 in most categories, and once lead the league in QB rating. Vick has not found his way to the top 10 except an isolated instance or two. The game has gotten easier for throwers, to the point that even Favre's records are not likely to last long even if Manning doesn't break them in the next couple seasons or three. (The TD record could be Mannings this season.)

Yup, that was my point - given the comparative state of the game at the time, I'd probably class Cunningham as more productive.

I commented in another thread on some of the passing numbers not that long ago, a link to some games from the 80s I think, there was an awful lot of sub-200 yard passing games as recently as that.

[Patler]

Yup, that was my point - given the comparative state of the game at the time, I'd probably class Cunningham as more productive.

I commented in another thread on some of the passing numbers not that long ago, a link to some games from the 80s I think, there was an awful lot of sub-200 yard passing games as recently as that.

Ya, I was agreeing with you without saying it. I am reverting back to my original thought yesterday without looking at the stats, that Cunningham was the better passer. I waffled this morning when I looked at their career stats, which are about the same. But I neglected to consider the different times in which they played. When you compare them within their own time, I think the nod goes to Cunningham as the better passer, for doing as well as Vick in a time period when it was more difficult to put up those kinds of numbers.