Help Me Understand...The New Defensive Line

[Fritz]

Okay, many of you know more than I do about the game itself. I can riff all day long on Drew Barrymore, or on my bloodhound nose for certain draft day stars, like Odell Thurman and Brian Brohm, but as for the game itself, I'm just, well, a fan.

So riddle me this: how do the new, young crop of defensive linemen (Worthy, Daniels, Boyd, Thornton) fit into the scheme of the defensive line? I understood the Datone Jones pick - last year the narrative was that MM and Capers wanted to get back to the "traditional" 3-4 DE,. and Jones was that guy - the tall, lanky, long-armed guy. Julius Peppers fits that, too.

But I thought that outside of that, what 3-4 DE's were supposed to do was to play two gaps, which meant staying in their lanes and occupying as many blockers as possible by being bull-strong and unmoveable (like Ryan Pickett could be sometimes). That was supposed to free up the linebackers to make the tackles, and was supposed to help maintain gap integrity.

But now the team has this plethora of quick, penetrating guys, none of whom seems to be, really, a nose tackle. And yet MM has I think used and talked about Boyd as a nose tackle, and now Thornton has been mentioned (see PB post on Thornton thread) as a possible 3-technique and nose tackle.

So how does the whole 3-4 scheme work when you now have a bunch of penetrating DT/DE types? Heck, MM even mentioned Raji as someone who would now be allowed to penetrate and not just hold blockers.

Does MM's desire for players to be able to slide into multiple roles signal a shift in the fundamental approach to the 3-4 that seemed to be in place during the 2010 SB run? There, it was the Pickett-Raji-Howard Green rotation of giant sloths eating blockers and Cullen Jenkins rushing inside on passing downs.

But now they all seem Cullen Jenkinsish.

Can anybody help me understand this?

[woodbuck27]

Understand?

Simply lean on prayer.

[Fritz]

I think he's just feeling pain in his hammy.

[woodbuck27]

Hey !!! Wist43 !!!


Here's Dom Capers "paint" to make up a competent DL for his "so deemed" 3-4 Defense.


Defensive Tackles:

** 76 Daniels, Mike DT ... 6-0 and 300 lbs 25 3 Iowa

** 98 Guion, Letroy DT... 6-4 and 315 lbs 26 7 Florida State


The BIG MEN ! The HEAD Of Dom Capers Snake?

** 64 Pennel, Mike DT ... 6-4 and 332 lbs 23 R Colorado State-Pueblo

** 90 Raji, B.J. DT ... 6-2 and 337 lbs 27 6 Boston College


The Defensive (Rush) Ends !?:

** 93 Boyd, Josh DE 6-3 310 24 2 Mississippi State

** 74 Gray, Carlos DE 6-2 313 21 R North Carolina State

** 95 Jones, Datone DE 6-4 285 23 2 UCLA

** 97 Robinson, Luther DE 6-3 301 23 R Miami

** 94 Thornton, Khyri DE 6-3 304 24 R Southern Mississippi

** 99 Worthy, Jerel DE 6-2 304 24 3 Michigan State


The Heavy Defensive Hybrides:

** 96 Neal, Mike DE/LB 6-3 285 26 5 Purdue

** 56 Peppers, Julius LB/DE 6-7 287 34 13 North Carolina



Looking at an NFCW Division that's getting tough/strong:

http://www.rotoworld.com/teams/depth-charts/nfl.aspx

Depth Charts of the NFCW TEAMS:



The NFCW Team Rosters:

The Seattle Seahawks Roster:

http://www.rotoworld.com/teams/rosters/nfl/sea/seattle-seahawks

The San Francisco Roster:

http://www.rotoworld.com/teams/rosters/nfl/sf/san-francisco-49ers

The Arizona Cardinals Roster:

http://www.rotoworld.com/teams/rosters/nfl/arz/arizona-cardinals

The ST. LOUIS RAMS Roster:

http://www.rotoworld.com/teams/rosters/nfl/stl/st-louis-rams

[HarveyWallbangers]

There has been a swift and mass movement in the NFL to a 3-4/4-3 hybrid scheme. It seems about half of the teams in the NFL have moved in this direction. It's clear from the last 2-3 drafts that the Packers are moving in a different direction with their DL scheme. Less two gap. I expect the Packers to play more 3-3-5, but Peppers and Neal give them the ability to drop one of their down linemen into coverage--more than most teams.

[red]

i'm with you fritz. i have no clue anymore what our d-line and lbers are suppose to be doing anymore. and judging by the up and down season the d had last year, i'm guessing alot of the players don't have a clue either

[pbmax]

The Packers have never played much two gap with Capers, if you can believe the coaches and I have not seen much, if any refutation of that fact.

Two gap is more than the 2-4 personnel or read and react. It means each of the 3, three or four lineman are responsible for each gap on either side of the player in front of them. They must maintain the ability to squeeze the hole on either side of their man while not abandoning the other.

The idea behind it is that with eight gaps to guard (A, B, C and D on either side of the ball) 4 players who could effectively 2 gap leave three front seven players free to do nothing but run to the ball. The screen shot below shows the gaps but has a one gap defense being played. In a seven man front, either the weak side safety or the end/OLB has the outside and the other is responsible for filling the weak side C gap.



In practice, teams usually over 2 gap with 3 players max, leaving 2 gaps guarded by a player with single gap responsibility. In Fritz Shurmur's 4-3 Under, the weak side OLB was the guy who got a single gap and the freedom to run to the ball.

A traditional AFC static 3-4 does two gap all three lineman, but Capers hasn't called it much. In fact, when you see 2-4 in dime or nickel, he isn't two gapping at all. This used to be common in the AFC and the Steelers ran it until around 2000.

The real question with the lineman now is double teams. Capers needed Pickett to absorb double teams, not to 2 gap. To combat the double team, you have to not get washed out of the play and thereby create third gap right over your backside.

And that is the question that I think is yet unanswered. The smaller D lineman will one gap and occasionally be allowed to penetrate. But someone is still going to get double teamed. Raji seems to have landed the starting NT job. Who backs him up, and who plays lineman in jumbo packages are questions that won't get answered until camp.

Boyd, Guion, a resigned Jolly or Pickett would be candidates.

[Fritz]

The Packers have never played much two gap with Capers, if you can believe the coaches and I have not seen much, if any refutation of that fact.

Two gap is more than the 2-4 personnel or read and react. It means each of the 3, three or four lineman are responsible for each gap on either side of the player in front of them. They must maintain the ability to squeeze the hole on either side of their man while not abandoning the other.

The idea behind it is that with eight gaps to guard (A, B, C and D on either side of the ball) 4 players who could effectively 2 gap leave three front seven players free to do nothing but run to the ball. The screen shot below shows the gaps but has a one gap defense being played. In a seven man front, either the weak side safety or the end/OLB has the outside and the other is responsible for filling the weak side C gap.



In practice, teams usually over 2 gap with 3 players max, leaving 2 gaps guarded by a player with single gap responsibility. In Fritz Shurmur's 4-3 Under, the weak side OLB was the guy who got a single gap and the freedom to run to the ball.

A traditional AFC static 3-4 does two gap all three lineman, but Capers hasn't called it much. In fact, when you see 2-4 in dime or nickel, he isn't two gapping at all. This used to be common in the AFC and the Steelers ran it until around 2000.

The real question with the lineman now is double teams. Capers needed Pickett to absorb double teams, not to 2 gap. To combat the double team, you have to not get washed out of the play and thereby create third gap right over your backside.

And that is the question that I think is yet unanswered. The smaller D lineman will one gap and occasionally be allowed to penetrate. But someone is still going to get double teamed. Raji seems to have landed the starting NT job. Who backs him up, and who plays lineman in jumbo packages are questions that won't get answered until camp.

Boyd, Guion, a resigned Jolly or Pickett would be candidates.

So dies it mean only the NT will most often by DT'd and must not penetrate? Or can Raji split a DT, or does it depend?

And has anyone any insight on this Mike Pennel from Colorado State Tech Truck Dtiving/Bible College? He seems nose tackle size.

And thanks for the help. All of youse guys.

[pbmax]

So dies it mean only the NT will most often by DT'd and must not penetrate? Or can Raji split a DT, or does it depend?

And has anyone any insight on this Mike Pennel from Colorado State Tech Truck Dtiving/Bible College? He seems nose tackle size.

And thanks for the help. All of youse guys.

Usually penetration is called by the defense prior to the snap. Packers call it a Jet technique. That is not to say Raji couldn't split a DT to get the ball and make a tackle, but he is not expected to rush up the field at the snap in most cases. So its not entirely dependent on the DT, no.

Remember the problems they had with Peterson in 2012? Half the defense was in the wrong gap in the first halves of those first two games (esp. Walden). Then players started to Jet up the field to try to stop Peterson and that put the D in even worse shape, geometrically and effectively speaking.

You could see this in action sometime during a live game. Raji will start bursting into the backfield and hitting the RB or QB and look like he is doing serious damage. But suddenly, the O adjusts and there are cutback runs in the middle of the D for big yardage. They just wait for the big guy to take himself out of the play.

[pbmax]

If I had to bet, I expect to see the same alignments this year, not a hybrid. But I expect mass substitutions in those sets. But I have read McCarthy wrong in the offseason before.

[mraynrand]

Well, lol... dunderdummy will take a pretty damn talented front seven - and puke up one of the worst defenses in the league.

Capers will misuse every guy TT gives him. Dunderdummy will just run the 2-4 99.999% of the time anyway, so it doesn't matter what talents linemen have or what down or distance you're dealing with: Capers will run the wrong alignment and put his players in the worst possible position for each of them, giving them the least possible chance to succeed.

As long as dunderdummy is our DC, defensive linemen don't matter.

[Bretsky]

Maybe Ted is not drafting players typical to the system DOM wants to run; just a thought

[pbmax]

Maybe Ted is not drafting players typical to the system DOM wants to run; just a thought

I think this is the basis of the problem. Mike has hired a DC whose system is best for vets. Mike was hired by a GM whose roster runs young. Its going to be a challenge to adjust. We probably have 20 threads about DC as DC prior to him coaching a single game. I don't remember this topic coming up.

I *think* Capers has run into this before. He and Belichick reportedly did not see eye to eye in New England during his stay there. This could have been a topic (Dom was DB coach).

If he gets it turned around, it would be quite a feather in his 60 year old rug, I mean cap.

[texaspackerbacker]

I said all last season and before that, it was stupid to have even one big fatty in there - little ability except to eat space, and Pickett and Raji didn't even do a good job of that. I was hoping for a more mobile D-Line will all three linemen at any given time having the ability to move, penetrate, and tackle - kinda like when the Cowboys had Jay Ratliff at NT.

It looks to me like the Packers are going that route - a base of: Raji on a short leash in rotation with Thornton or maybe Boyd at NT, with Daniels, and Jones at DE, in rotation with Boyd and Worthy. I would not expect them to go to a 4-3. I would, however, expect to see a lot of more pass rush oriented 3-4 with Peppers or Neal at DE, and one of the base DEs used at the Nose - as I recall Cullen Jenkins used to do in passing situations.

I like the direction this is going. I absolutely hated it with Pickett and Raji were on the field together. We seem to be stuck with Raji for at least another year, but hopefully he won't be quite so bad in his new role.

Picture a passing down with Daniels at NT, D. Jones and Neal at DE, Matthews and Peppers at OLB, Bradford and Hawk at ILB. Do we have a pass rush or what?

[Just Jeff]

Help me understand.... how our defense is defensible?