Biggest addition TT has made.

[Patler]

But I'm sure the influence is there. Recent comments by AR in the media, about the center position, were very possibly not the first time he opined on the subject, and its unlikely that TT is not aware of his opinion on the subject. I don't think there is a whole lot of difference in the substance of

"Hey TT, you homo, sign Moss"

and

"I would like to see some stability at center"

The form is very different, but the substance is the same. Message sent. Message received.

I don't follow your argument. Both may have offered opinions to the media, maybe even directly to TT, but it doesn't appear either had significant influence on TT's decisions. TT didn't sign Moss, and he didn't keep either Wells or EDS, in spite of what Favre or AR might have wanted.

The GM is paid to make decisions based on his own judgement, and ignore the wants/desires of players unless it jives with the GM's own opinion/evaluation. Any GM who gives in to the wants of a player over the GM's own decision should be fired for being spineless.

[Just Jeff]

I don't follow your argument. Both may have offered opinions to the media, maybe even directly to TT, but it doesn't appear either had significant influence on TT's decisions. TT didn't sign Moss, and he didn't keep either Wells or EDS, in spite of what Favre or AR might have wanted.

The GM is paid to make decisions based on his own judgement, and ignore the wants/desires of players unless it jives with the GM's own opinion/evaluation. Any GM who gives in to the wants of a player over the GM's own decision should be fired for being spineless.

I never suggested that GMs obey, just that they do communicate with key personnel about their perceptions and that has some influence, at some level on their decisions. Same with scouts. They have input, but ultimately its the GMs call.

[bobblehead]

But I'm sure the influence is there. Recent comments by AR in the media, about the center position, were very possibly not the first time he opined on the subject, and its unlikely that TT is not aware of his opinion on the subject. I don't think there is a whole lot of difference in the substance of

"Hey TT, you homo, sign Moss"

and

"I would like to see some stability at center"

The form is very different, but the substance is the same. Message sent. Message received.

except your missing the main point. Neither guy got his wish.

[Just Jeff]

except your missing the main point. Neither guy got his wish.

It was my point so I doubt I missed it. Again, they have input, but it doesn't mean they get their wish. Not that complicated. There are hundreds, if not many more, variables that determine the dependent variable, in almost any equation. To suggest that because one of those variables isn't perfectly correlated with the outcome, that the variable does not have some correlation, shows a gross misunderstanding of any dependent, independent variable relationship.

[bobblehead]

It was my point so I doubt I missed it. Again, they have input, but it doesn't mean they get their wish. Not that complicated. There are hundreds, if not many more, variables that determine the dependent variable, in almost any equation. To suggest that because one of those variables isn't perfectly correlated with the outcome, that the variable does not have some correlation, shows a gross misunderstanding of any dependent, independent variable relationship.

I missed your point then. We are generally in agreement. The only subtle disagreement would be that with TT I don't think AR or BF's lobbying has any impact whatsoever. With some GM's I think a star QB might have more influence. In this case the variable isn't correlated with the outcome at all.

[BZnDallas]

It was my point so I doubt I missed it. Again, they have input, but it doesn't mean they get their wish. Not that complicated. There are hundreds, if not many more, variables that determine the dependent variable, in almost any equation. To suggest that because one of those variables isn't perfectly correlated with the outcome, that the variable does not have some correlation, shows a gross misunderstanding of any dependent, independent variable relationship.

SHIT!!!! I think I understood that.... SOMEONE GET ME A BEER!!!!!!!

LOL... all kidding aside... I do believe I understand what JJ is trying to say... the out come isn't the issue... the issue is both QBs saying something and making their opinions public... Who knows they may have been asked for their opinions by the media or they may have brought it up themselves... but the opinion being made public is the key

[BZnDallas]

Oops sorry bobble didn't see your post while I was typing

[Patler]

It was my point so I doubt I missed it. Again, they have input, but it doesn't mean they get their wish. Not that complicated. There are hundreds, if not many more, variables that determine the dependent variable, in almost any equation. To suggest that because one of those variables isn't perfectly correlated with the outcome, that the variable does not have some correlation, shows a gross misunderstanding of any dependent, independent variable relationship.

I don't consider blabbering to the media as having input. I don't consider going to the GM and saying, "I want X on my team." as having input either. A scout watching a player, writing an analysis and offering a recommendation IS having input in the process. That is the purpose of the scout, not the player.

[vince]

Most would agree, but when you couple it with Rivera and Wahle it really shows his reckless lack of concern for the two 1st ballot HOF QBs that the line was supposed to protect. 10 years later, our Oline is nowhere where it was when it was the great white wall.

2013 Packers Offensive Rankings
Sack Rate - 22nd (World Champions 32nd)
Sacks per Game - 25th (World Champions 24th)

Yep the line sucked. But those stats don't tell the real story.

PFF digs a little deeper.

Here's the real story.
QB Time Before Throwing
In 2013, if Rodgers didn't get rid of the ball on a quick route (he led the league in % of quick passes under 2 seconds - by plan not due to pressure as PFF shows in the next table), he tended to hang onto it a long time. He was well below the league average in getting rid of the ball between 2 ad 3.5 seconds but then jumped up well above the league average in holding the ball more than 3.5 seconds.

QB Time to Pressure (How Fast Does the Pressure Get There?)
In 2013, the line was consistently better than average in protecting Rodgers (and Flynn). They ranked well below the league average in every time range under 3.5 seconds to pressure and were well above the league average in holding off pressure more than 3.5 seconds.

That information indicates that the line didn't suck as bad as it might appear by just looking at sack numbers on their own...

And here are the rest of the rankings...

Rushing Yards per Game - 7th
Rushing Yards per Attempt - 5th
Passing Yards per Game - 7th
Passing Yards per Attempt - 6th
Points per Game - 9th
Total Offense - 4th

That's not the kind of production you get with a shitty line. I'd say this line performed pretty damn well overall, especially considering they worked through three QB's - none of whom went through camp or played a down for the Packers in the preseason, for half the games.

And this year, time will tell but my guess is that none of Bulaga pushing Barclay to the bench, Tretter replacing EDS, and Sherrod (at minimum) pushing Bakh - who's no longer a 4th round rookie being forced into action at LT no less - are likely to make it perform any worse.

[mraynrand]

It's hard for me to imagine that TT and his QBs (and Stubby) aren't in a room together on multiple occasions going over film, talking about the QBs strengths, weaknesses, preferences, and TT talking about receiver types, routes, etc. that fit the abilities of the QB. If a QB were to 'lobby' for another 'weapon' I'm guessing he'd have all the chances in the world to do that. I also can see TT telling the QBs - "I've got a draft board and a strategy, and I know how to use them. You'll get what I give you and I'll try to make it what works best for you and the team."

Any public 'lobbying' seems to me to be frustration, but I can't imagine that it's in any way effective. And Rodgers saying he wants stability at center isn't lobbying, it isn't criticism, it's just a statement of fact and preference.

[mraynrand]

That's not the kind of production you get with a shitty line. I'd say this line performed pretty damn well overall, especially considering they worked through three QB's - none of whom went through camp or played a down for the Packers in the preseason, for half the games.

..... And this year, time will tell but my guess is that none of Bulaga pushing Barclay to the bench, Tretter replacing EDS, and Sherrod (at minimum) pushing Bakh - who's no longer a 4th round rookie being forced into action at LT no less - are likely to make it perform any worse.

good find. good analysis. repped

[Patler]

It's hard for me to imagine that TT and his QBs (and Stubby) aren't in a room together on multiple occasions going over film, talking about the QBs strengths, weaknesses, preferences, and TT talking about receiver types, routes, etc. that fit the abilities of the QB. If a QB were to 'lobby' for another 'weapon' I'm guessing he'd have all the chances in the world to do that. I also can see TT telling the QBs - "I've got a draft board and a strategy, and I know how to use them. You'll get what I give you and I'll try to make it what works best for you and the team."

Any public 'lobbying' seems to me to be frustration, but I can't imagine that it's in any way effective. And Rodgers saying he wants stability at center isn't lobbying, it isn't criticism, it's just a statement of fact and preference.

I doubt that TT and AR are very often in a room together for any purpose, let alone going over film of any sort.

[woodbuck27]

Do you honestly believe Favre didn't have a lot of influence on Sherman?

With the lack of weapons that FAVRE had to work with under Mike Sherman ie quality WR's:

Did it even matter?

Any influence he might have had in my view was moot.

[run pMc]

I think Favre had influence over Sherman, or at a minimum Sherman wasn't sure how many years he had with Favre and so he was in win-now mode and made some decisions accordingly. It cost him.
I think TT didn't let that thinking distract him from his methods.
I think TT let guys like Wahle and Rivera go because he knew they were going to want a lot of money and the rest of the roster had holes to fill. He tends to follow the axiom that it's better to let a vet leave a year early than keep them a year too long. Rivera didn't last long after leaving GB and Wahle put in a few decent years, so I guess he was 50/50 there.

I think vince pulled some interesting stats and it right about the team not being terrible. They aren't HOFers but they aren't stiffs.

I think JJ is right that the QB can talk to the media -- and with it being GB, anytime the QB is in public there's a danger of him being bothered for a quote (or misquoted) -- but that doesn't mean the GM is gonna do what the QB says publicly.

Personally I think it would look bad if the GM was taking cues from the QB's statements, public or not. The GM runs the entire team, the QB runs the offense as directed by the HC/OC.

[pbmax]

I don't know that Sherman needed to ever have a conversation about player acquisition with Favre in order to make the choices he did. The specter of Favre leaving while Sherman was on watch as GM clearly haunted the guy. A coach that barely anyone knew without no background as GM, no public reputation or resume to fall back on, he knew that if Favre balked hard enough about continuing to play, he was a goner. He was no Holmgren, Starr or Gregg and he wasn't even Wolf's hand picked successor.

I give Sherman credit in three areas. Some game management issues aside (clock), he was a good coach who could fire up his team to avoid losing streaks and compiled an impressive W-L record. His first hires for coaches were pretty good (Ed Donatell should have been retained, the O line coach was great). Second, as GM, he maintained enough composure in tough circumstances to not preside over a tire fire. Many of his hand picked draftees worked out (Barnett, Walker) if they weren't punters. He retained enough control of the cap that it took Thompson only one year (and three vets) to convert it to pay as you go.

The third is that he clearly maintained control of the team's offense with Rossley. Favre could have been indignant about running first, but he bought in and it worked. There are an entire generation of coaches for the Lions, Vikings and Bears post Ditka who could not claim that kind of quality track record.

But either through design (his preference about how to operate) or because of perceived pressure (fear of Favre-less future), he did not have a long term vision. He was a classic, take care of the problem in front of you guy. Needs linebackers? Sign the good ones you have so you don't lose anyone and don't worry about too much about overpaying (Diggs) and draft someone you think will work (Barnett). Same with WR and Javon Walker, though my memory is blank on re-signings and FAs (bringing Charles Jordan back?).

But with no long term vision and little flexibility in the cap, coupled with minimal experience, you get worked over by McKenzie and Walker (though Walker lost his battle, it took an injury to take the pressure off the team). He didn't let expensive vets go and resign 3rd or 4th week FA vets to replace them at less money because it was not a sure thing. He signed a one trick pony (KGB) so the defense wouldn't get immediately worse. With fewer draft picks and a tight cap, he needed to maintain his front-line starters more than most and it got expensive. Then the back end of the roster got worse as he had no sure way of replenishing depth.

I have said it before and I still believe it, the six to ten weeks that Favre with sit at home after a season, giving no indication about whether he intended to come back, was an exercise in power. It worked, probably better than he could have hoped for. Sherman's offense probably added 5 years to his career.