OFFICIAL 2015 NFL DRAFT THREAD

[sharpe1027]

40 YARD DASH: 4.91 SEC
BENCH PRESS: 17 REPS
VERTICAL JUMP: 25.5 INCH
BROAD JUMP: 114.0 INCH
3 CONE DRILL: 7.80 SEC
20 YARD SHUTTLE: 4.70 SEC

His numbers were pretty bad.

[smuggler]

7.8 3 cone is basically undraftable as an edge rusher... the reason he got drafted was his college productivity alone. Btw, I think Ray is a better than average bust candidate. The fact he is not a taboobuster is only a slight bonus.

Longer arms than Sam. Bigger frame, with potential for growth. Taller. Drastically better vertical jump and more explosive. Much better all around athlete. Sam would never have been drafted in the first four rounds because of a myriad of things that have nothing to do with his sexuality. I do think it's more than likely that coming out hurt his draft stock a bit, but that was more to do with the media than biggotry on the part of the NFL.

The fact he is not on a roster right now has much more to do with how bad he is than his choice of sexual partner. If Vic Beasley came out a few weeks before the draft, he would absolutely have been drafted by the end of the 3rd round. Probably well before then.

[pbmax]

I will say if he was a UDFA for the Packers (just a hypothetical not an argument) I would have expected him to live at least one year on the PS. Against the Packers, he trashed the RT 3 times in a relatively short time frame and had at least 2 QB hits (1 sack)*. He would have had his own thread here and a bandwagon committee after a performance like that.

Now could he have done that against starters? UDFAs don't often make that leap even after M3 compliments their offseason. But I would have been surprised if he had not been given a year to develop.

But I don't agree it was simple bigotry that caused him only to get a 6 game stint in Dallas on their PS. Marginal players who invite distraction are routinely let go. He got Tebowed. Its not a directly analogous, because Tebow might not be able to run the team offense, but a similar dynamic is at work.


*More than the sum total of Jamal Reynolds career

[mraynrand]

Marginal players who invite distraction are routinely let go. He got Tebowed. Its not a directly analogous, because Tebow might not be able to run the team offense, but a similar dynamic is at work.

I think this is spot on. Coaches and teams hate distractions. They have enough of them already without a media circus. If Sam were a strong player though, he'd be on a roster. Coaches would probably have an ISIS guy on their team, if the guy could get 10-15 sacks. They'd just hire an extra guy or two to keep him away from sharp objects, like machetes.

[pbmax]

I think this is spot on. Coaches and teams hate distractions. They have enough of them already without a media circus. If Sam were a strong player though, he'd be on a roster. Coaches would probably have an ISIS guy on their team, if the guy could get 10-15 sacks. They'd just hire an extra guy or two to keep him away from sharp objects, like machetes.

Exactly. In order:

1. Production
2. Talent
3. Draft Pick
3. Distraction

And you only get a year or two on talent alone. Change in regime also negates your draft pick status. We could make a board game out of this.

Settlers of the Combine

Now its not fair to either. I think both deserve more of a shot (Tebow* might finally be getting one), but coaches are control freaks and this stuff drives them nuts. I suspect more people are uncomfortable with Sam on their team because questions of religion dividing a team were a settled favorably long ago while a public same-sex preference is very new. The Tebow phenomenon was a singular confluence of events. But the dynamic is along the same lines.

Its going to take a couple of very good players to tamp down the concerns.


* I don't think Tebow is a starting QB, however he is vastly more talented as an offensive threat than 30 of 32 backup QBs. Needing a separate offense is problematic, but Tebow in Philly might develop into a nightmare for opposing defenses, even while he is not a starter.

[red]

now the whole "too big of a media distraction" is an argument i can understand

if not for the media circus surrounding him, is he on an nfl roster right now?

[pbmax]

now the whole "too big of a media distraction" is an argument i can understand

if not for the media circus surrounding him, is he on an nfl roster right now?

The guy I saw work the 2nd string Packer RT did. But could he do that to the 1st string guy?

He needed another year to develop but didn't get it. His vet combine didn't look promising.

[Fritz]

Why not just accuse everyone, except of course yourself - you, the lone bastion of enlightenment, with vulgarity as a co-segregating trait. We here at Packerrats can only be grateful to god to have you as our moral compass.

Red as our moral compass. Damn, I like that!

[red]

7.8 3 cone is basically undraftable as an edge rusher... the reason he got drafted was his college productivity alone. Btw, I think Ray is a better than average bust candidate. The fact he is not a taboobuster is only a slight bonus.

Longer arms than Sam. Bigger frame, with potential for growth. Taller. Drastically better vertical jump and more explosive. Much better all around athlete. Sam would never have been drafted in the first four rounds because of a myriad of things that have nothing to do with his sexuality. I do think it's more than likely that coming out hurt his draft stock a bit, but that was more to do with the media than biggotry on the part of the NFL.

The fact he is not on a roster right now has much more to do with how bad he is than his choice of sexual partner. If Vic Beasley came out a few weeks before the draft, he would absolutely have been drafted by the end of the 3rd round. Probably well before then.

you want to throw out some more flat out lies to try and make your point?

arms-
ray- 33 1/8
sam- 33 3/8

sam has longer arms

weight

ray-245
sam- 261

height

ray-6'3
sam- 6'2

wow, soooo much taller

hands

ray- 9"
sam- 9 3/8

verticle (at mizzou pro day)

ray- 33
sam- 30

wow, 3 inches is drastically better?

the 3 cone, sams big downfall

sam had a 7.80
ray- 7.60

better, but still shitty compared to most. (vic beasly had a 6.91, clay did it in 6.90 for reference)

shuttle

ray 4.58
sam 4.70

both shitty and not that different (cm3 had a 4.18)



mike mayock came out and flat out said ray didn't have a good pro day, said he looked "stiff in the hips", same thing that sam had a problem with

paul dawson, had worse numbers then sam in every category, but went in the third

like i said earlier. when ray didn't do anything at the combine and disappointed at his pro day, the "experts" said, "forget the number, watch the tape"

when sam had a bad combine and pro day, the same exact experts said "forget how good the tape looks, the numbers tell us everything"

[red]

Red as our moral compass. Damn, I like that!

we are all fucked, big time

[red]

The guy I saw work the 2nd string Packer RT did. But could he do that to the 1st string guy?

He needed another year to develop but didn't get it. His vet combine didn't look promising.

can most rookies do that against a first string tackle in their first year?

i'm not saying sam would be a star, or even a starter, but i bet he could be a lot better then a lot of guys currently oin the nfl.

but like you said, why would a coach or GM want that media circus for a career backup?

and it would be like the tebow thing. you would have all kinds of people who have no idea about anything related to football, asking everyday why the guy isn't starting

[3irty1]

I think Micahael Sam the player is good enough to still be in the NFL and I don't think its the media circus that cost him that opportunity. Some teams hate distractions but others invite HBO into their house. Two main problems with Sam I think. First, even non-first openly gay players need the right locker room fit. There are probably plenty of GM's who didn't want to shake up their locker room by introducing Sam to it. Secondly I think Sam scared a lot of teams with his use of the media. A media circus you can control is free publicity, but a media circus you can't is nightmarish. What Sam did was honest and brave but the way he invited the spotlight, kissed his bf on national tv, etc. Makes you wonder what he might say about his experience in your franchise in the likely event that he doesn't make your team. Remember all the other GM's have eccentric billionairs to answer to. I don't blame them for thinking Sam's not worth the risk.

I thought he was a good player though. Maybe not quite as good as Shane Ray but IMO Ray was still overdrafted and in a shitty class at that.

[sharpe1027]

mike mayock came out and flat out said ray didn't have a good pro day, said he looked "stiff in the hips", same thing that sam had a problem with

paul dawson, had worse numbers then sam in every category, but went in the third

like i said earlier. when ray didn't do anything at the combine and disappointed at his pro day, the "experts" said, "forget the number, watch the tape"

when sam had a bad combine and pro day, the same exact experts said "forget how good the tape looks, the numbers tell us everything"

Part of this argument really depends on whether or not you consider pro days equivalent to the official NFL combine. There are some significant differences between the two.

[red]

Part of this argument really depends on whether or not you consider pro days equivalent to the official NFL combine. There are some significant differences between the two.

yeah, but ray didn't do anything at the combine, except the bench, because of a foot injury. a lot of the numbers i'm using for comparisons are from rays pro day at mizzou, and sams pro day, also at mizzou, in the same indoor facility and probably with the same personal running the show and timing it

[red]

I think Micahael Sam the player is good enough to still be in the NFL and I don't think its the media circus that cost him that opportunity. Some teams hate distractions but others invite HBO into their house. Two main problems with Sam I think. First, even non-first openly gay players need the right locker room fit. There are probably plenty of GM's who didn't want to shake up their locker room by introducing Sam to it. Secondly I think Sam scared a lot of teams with his use of the media. A media circus you can control is free publicity, but a media circus you can't is nightmarish. What Sam did was honest and brave but the way he invited the spotlight, kissed his bf on national tv, etc. Makes you wonder what he might say about his experience in your franchise in the likely event that he doesn't make your team. Remember all the other GM's have eccentric billionairs to answer to. I don't blame them for thinking Sam's not worth the risk.

I thought he was a good player though. Maybe not quite as good as Shane Ray but IMO Ray was still overdrafted and in a shitty class at that.

didn't he even have a TV deal set up before he signed? like with oprah or something