ARE WE GIVING AROD A FREE PASS ??????????????????

[mraynrand]

Have you ever seen a qb giftwrap a turnover, simply because he THOUGHT there was a defensive penalty?

Happened at least twice this past season - both times the INT was called back because of offsides. Granted, Rodgers and the Packers take many more chances on free plays (than other teams), because they seem able to draw the defense offsides much more frequently.

[mraynrand]

But if you can't admit that pick to Sherman was a mistake on Aaron's part

I hate straw men like these. Of course it was a mistake on Rodger's part. no one is denying that. The question is how culpable Rodgers is: that is, whether the gamble made sense or not, how justifiable it was, whether the wind contributed to the errant throw, the effect of the defense and the refs, etc. etc. So you disagree with some of us. What of it.

[pbmax]

It's his responsibility to glance to the side, or notice a flag peripherally before just chucking it up. I'll ask in a different way...is it a sound decision as a quarterback to assume anything in the way of penalties? Have you ever seen a qb giftwrap a turnover, simply because he THOUGHT there was a defensive penalty? And you really would think well, aw shucks, he thought there should be a flag so it's not his fault. If Sam Shields thought he saw a hold on the offensive line, then let his man blow by him for a touchdown would you consider that his fault?
There is a lot of grey area in this game with the calf, play calling, and scheme. But if you can't admit that pick to Sherman was a mistake on Aaron's part, then I think you just have to own you are blinded by some agenda that I don't understand.

If Sam is seeing holding on pass plays, then he is doing his job terribly and should put his eyes back on the WR.

By contrast, a hard count or screwing with his cadence is precisely within the purview of the QB. Its his job to draw them offside.

But holding versus offside/encroachment is precisely why you fail to persuade. 99% of pre-snap penalties get called because there is nothing else happening and there are two sets of eyes on 8-10 players lined up in a row. Even if Seattle was drawn offside by a Packer flinching, there will be a penalty and the play is either free or comes back. Holding, illegal hands to face or DPI are all judgement calls and you cannot count on the flag.

Try to think of the last time one of those free shot plays bit the Packers in the ass. He's been doing it for at least five years. Name the previous times it has burned them.

[pbmax]

And I have yet to hear one good reason why what an NFL qb thinks is or isn't a penalty, is a justifiable excuse for turning the ball over.

Because it has been more successful than any other play the Packers run regularly. You might as well argue that running left is a bad idea because the Packers once fumbled on the left side.

You want a Rodgers criticism? The throw was late (or should have been thrown deeper/outside) or it beats Sherman for a TD.

[woodbuck27]

Rodgers likes to take a shot at a big play when he thinks he has a free play. He's done this throughout his career and has had some big plays off of it. This time it backfired. That happens sometimes. The next time in one of these situations he throws into tight coverage and hits Jordy for a 50 yard TD because he thinks he has a free play, will you say he shouldn't have thrown it because he couldn't be sure the flag would be thrown? I know I won't.

He's discussing that one play in that one game. A poor throw by Aaron Rodgers. Not as much the decision to make the throw.

At the time of the throw Aaron Rodgers wasn't thinking:

'Ohh boy a defensive offside 'a free throw'... so I'll just let it go right there inside and uncatchable.'

That was a bad throw. That throw could 'only' be picked and it was. End of story.

Is that fact so hard to admit as the truth?

[th87]

Rodgers likes to take a shot at a big play when he thinks he has a free play. He's done this throughout his career and has had some big plays off of it. This time it backfired. That happens sometimes. The next time in one of these situations he throws into tight coverage and hits Jordy for a 50 yard TD because he thinks he has a free play, will you say he shouldn't have thrown it because he couldn't be sure the flag would be thrown? I know I won't.

I contend that in those situations, he's seen the flag thrown.

[th87]

That reason might be that he was playing on one leg against the NFL's best defense. He didn't have a great game, but he wasn't the reason the Packers blew a 12 point lead in the last 5 minutes.

This is precisely the 20,000 ft. view I'm talking about. Let's go to the ground level and examine the individual plays. Was it injury and good defense that caused him to miss Cobb deep over the middle, or on the slant? Or Nelson on the out route? It didn't seem that the defense was a factor on those misses - he was getting good protection, and the receivers were open. I couldn't tell you if it was the calf, but Rodgers himself had said that because the injury is not on his plant foot, his accuracy isn't affected.

I've noticed some unforced misses from him in the playoffs - things that don't happen as much during the regular season (it seems).

(It should go without saying that he's still the best in the business, but I don't think he's immune to questioning)

[Joemailman]

He's discussing that one play in that one game. A poor throw by Aaron Rodgers. Not as much the decision to make the throw.

At the time of the throw Aaron Rodgers wasn't thinking:

'Ohh boy a defensive offside 'a free throw'... so I'll just let it go right there inside and uncatchable.'

That was a bad throw. That throw could 'only' be picked and it was. End of story.

Is that fact so hard to admit as the truth?

I'm pretty sure everybody knows it was a bad throw. Whether or not Rodgers should have thrown the ball is I believe exactly what we were debating. Yetisnowman said It's his responsibility to glance to the side, or notice a flag peripherally before just chucking it up. My position is that is that I believe Rodgers has made big completions before without knowing if the ref has thrown the flag, so I was okay with him taking that chance.

If I have misrepresented Yetisnowman's argument, I apologize.

[pbmax]

He's discussing that one play in that one game. A poor throw by Aaron Rodgers. Not as much the decision to make the throw.

At the time of the throw Aaron Rodgers wasn't thinking:

'Ohh boy a defensive offside 'a free throw'... so I'll just let it go right there inside and uncatchable.'

That was a bad throw. That throw could 'only' be picked and it was. End of story.

Is that fact so hard to admit as the truth?

Yeti has made two claims;

1. That Rodgers should be certain a flag has been thrown before assuming he has a free play. Assuming the flag will fly is foolish.

2. That the INT throw itself was a poor play, along with several other bad throws from him in the game.

Of course parsing both yeti and th87 is tough because one keeps responding to posts responding to the other.

[woodbuck27]

Yeti has made two claims;

1. That Rodgers should be certain a flag has been thrown before assuming he has a free play. Assuming the flag will fly is foolish.

2. That the INT throw itself was a poor play, along with several other bad throws from him in the game.

Of course parsing both yeti and th87 is tough because one keeps responding to posts responding to the other.

I've been posting all week that Aaron Rodgers wasn't right in Seattle and the fact that's the case had little to do with his calf injury given it was a week after his solid performance at Lambeau Field Vs Dallas. Frankly his performance in Seattle was shocking. He looked not at all like himself and a regular season performance. As a member already posted. Aaron Rodgers throws off of his uninjured right leg. As Aaron Rodgers admitted himself the left calf injury isn't a factor in the mechanics of his passing.

Did you see him last night just prior to his MVP Award was announced?? If so what did you see? Did you observe him when his credentials were announced for the Walter Payton Man of the Year Award?

Aaron Rodgers is an intensely sensitive man. Aaron Rodgers gets balled up in his emotions. He takes all that into a big play off game (that chip on his shoulder attitude) and it doesn't spell 'good'. Look at the best athletes in any sport and winning. You see a winner. What you see most assuredly is coolness and seldom any cocky confidence. You see the nervous focus of a winner.

That's not Aaron Rodgers and playoffs since 2010-11.

[yetisnowman]

If Sam is seeing holding on pass plays, then he is doing his job terribly and should put his eyes back on the WR.

By contrast, a hard count or screwing with his cadence is precisely within the purview of the QB. Its his job to draw them offside.

But holding versus offside/encroachment is precisely why you fail to persuade. 99% of pre-snap penalties get called because there is nothing else happening and there are two sets of eyes on 8-10 players lined up in a row. Even if Seattle was drawn offside by a Packer flinching, there will be a penalty and the play is either free or comes back. Holding, illegal hands to face or DPI are all judgement calls and you cannot count on the flag.

Try to think of the last time one of those free shot plays bit the Packers in the ass. He's been doing it for at least five years. Name the previous times it has burned them.

The reason why it hasn't burned them is because he was certain in all those cases it was a penalty. As he should be, if he is chucking up jumpballs. To me it is just common sense. It's not a "FREE" play unless their is a penalty, so the qb should be damn sure the play is free before treating it as though it has no consequences. And I just have to doubt that it is commonplace for a qb to have the greenlight to assume defensive penalties, otherwise we would see this exact scenario happen much more often. Have you seen Aaron or any other qb throw a jumpball free play style, only to have and INT or incompletion stand? If it has it is super rare, and I would bet the qb would admit he was at fault for assuming a penalty and wasting a play or throwing a pick.
The refs have shown just about any call, no more how obvious it may seem, is a judgement call. So I will remain adamant that a qb ASSUMING a play is free, and treating it as such, is not not sound decision making.

[yetisnowman]

I contend that in those situations, he's seen the flag thrown.

Ding ding ding ding ding......

[yetisnowman]

Happened at least twice this past season - both times the INT was called back because of offsides. Granted, Rodgers and the Packers take many more chances on free plays (than other teams), because they seem able to draw the defense offsides much more frequently.

I meant where the turnover stood, hence giftwrapping it. Hence thinking it was a penalty, without knowing it.

[yetisnowman]

I hate straw men like these. Of course it was a mistake on Rodger's part. no one is denying that. The question is how culpable Rodgers is: that is, whether the gamble made sense or not, how justifiable it was, whether the wind contributed to the errant throw, the effect of the defense and the refs, etc. etc. So you disagree with some of us. What of it.

Sorry it's been pretty difficult for some to admit it was a mistake. Mistakes really only are mistakes with culpability attached to it. Other wise it's just bad luck. Aw shucks my calf, aw shucks the refs, aw shucks it's rainy in Seattle, aw shucks Richard Sherman....oh well maybe next year. In my opinion it is just a losing mentality to not expect Aaron to overcome these things. I am not claiming those are your beliefs per se, but I just see too many excuses that do remove culpability from a large contingency on this board. Sorry if I rub you thew wrong way, I have just been dealing with this argument for years.

[Patler]

If the QB waited to be certain of everything he thinks he sees, he would be sacked on every play. He assumes people will do their jobs. He assumes his own receivers will make the adjustments he expects, make the breaks he expects and at the depths he expects. He throws accordingly. If the receivers do not do as he expects, the result is often an interception.

When he sees what to him is an obvious offside, he expects the officials will also do their jobs. I seriously doubt that every time he has had a free play he has confirmed it by actually seeing the flag. He sees the offside/encroachment, and makes certain assumptions based on it.

Besides, the throw that was intercepted was not THAT bad. Sherman also made a very good play on the ball. It was not a good throw for sure, mostly because it was late but also because it was off target, just as many of AR's throws have been since the calf injury. I'm not blaming Adams, but on the other hand he also could have made a better effort at preventing an interception. I think he was surprised at how quickly Sherman adjusted to the less than perfect throw.