Bates as HC

[gbpackfan]

I couldn't disagree more. Players make plays! Coaches are important but the lack of effort was on the players, not MM and his staff. But, since our society is moving towards the "blame someone else for my faults" way of thinking, I guess you are spot on. MM wasn't perfect last night, but Vince Lombardi couldn't have coached that group of slackers to a victory Monday night! Got to have heart boys, HEART!

[gbpackfan]

Since you asked...

convenient.

Much appreciated.

[Partial]

Actually I heard from Brett's best friend that MM really wanted this game and did throw more at this preseason game than normal.

I believe they spent 1 1/2 days on the Bengals, two at most. A lot of the time was spent on Chicago. MM wants every game and should. Game planning was not a high priority here.

I can't put this one on the coaches, it was the players. Blaming the coaches is a convienant (spelling?) excuse and a lame one at that!

Should that make much of a difference though? I feel like good players should be able to go out and produce regardless of what the game plan is.

[Brainerd]

I couldn't disagree more. Players make plays! Coaches are important but the lack of effort was on the players, not MM and his staff. But, since our society is moving towards the "blame someone else for my faults" way of thinking, I guess you are spot on. MM wasn't perfect last night, but Vince Lombardi couldn't have coached that group of slackers to a victory Monday night! Got to have heart boys, HEART!

Calling me out for placing blame when you are blaming the players and you didn't even have the balls to quote me. You're a boob. JSO is more your speed. No one makes sense over there.

Since you brought up Lombardi:

The 1958 Packers were 1-10-1 coached by Ray McLean. Had slacker players like Starr, Hornung, Taylor, Nitschke, Gregg, Kramer, Ringo, McGee and so on.

The 1959 Packers were 7-5-0 coached by Vince Lombardi. Had the same slacker players. A year later the same slacker players played in the title game but lost. A year later the same slacker players won the NFL championship.

Coaching had nothing to do with it at all. They all just decided without any coaching to stop being slackers. Lombardi just happened to be at the right place at the right time.

I repeat myself, you're a boob.

[gbpackfan]

Dude, settle down with the personal attacks. Damn man! I know we are all jacked up over the loss the other night but let's not tear each other apart.

I didn't "have the balls" to quote you? HA HA. What the hell does that mean? HA HA. I didn't quote you because I didn't think what you said was stupid or boob-ish. I just disagree.

Another thing, I wasn't comparing the 2006 Packers to Lombardi's Packers. I was just joking! What is your deal?

As for going back to JSO, I was one of the original guys asked to come to Packerrats.com when it first started. So settle down, learn to relax and make your points with out name calling. Trust me bro, you're the one who is acting like this is the JSO page and posts like that is one of the reasons this site was created.

[gbpackfan]

Actually I heard from Brett's best friend that MM really wanted this game and did throw more at this preseason game than normal.

I believe they spent 1 1/2 days on the Bengals, two at most. A lot of the time was spent on Chicago. MM wants every game and should. Game planning was not a high priority here.

I can't put this one on the coaches, it was the players. Blaming the coaches is a convienant (spelling?) excuse and a lame one at that!

Should that make much of a difference though? I feel like good players should be able to go out and produce regardless of what the game plan is.

Partial, I agree. That is kind of the point I was making. I was just trying to clarify a point made earlier.

Oh, and BRING BACK SNOOPY!

[MadtownPacker]

Bates must do something to set some alarms off to GMs cuz he deserves a shot and if he didnt get it in Miami or in GB something is wrong with his crazy ole ass.

[woodbuck27]

Fact is, that with 10 openings for HC this season, Bates didn't get any of them. There must be a reason why. I know he was fiery last year, but the defense wasn't perfect either. I don't know how much of that was Bates call or Sherman's but the man isn't God. McCarthy is the one who got hired and as such deserves the opportunity to play at least a regular season game before you guys start looking over your shoulders at "what could have been." What could have been is quite possibly he could have sucked worse than anything that might happen with M3 this year. M3 is the coach. Bates is not. He has a 3-year contract to prove himself and even if you end up wanting to hang him by his privates, there isn't much you could do about it.

MJ:

I'm thinking... that you told them... " to shut up " ?

[Brainerd]

But, since our society is moving towards the "blame someone else for my faults" way of thinking, I guess you are spot on.

How is that not a personal attack? How is that not name calling? It implies I'm stupid and just tossing out blame without thinking. I used MM's own words to make my point that he has shown nothing to indicate he is ready to be a HC in the NFL. In repsonse you stated that I was placing blame. You didn't use facts, you attacked me personally.

You did all this without quoting me so it would be difficult for anyone but myself to follow. A cowardly hit and run action by someone who simply wants to fling acusations without any need to back themselves up annoying things like facts. Like the annoying fact that coaching matters and not just players.

Another thing, I wasn't comparing the 2006 Packers to Lombardi's Packers. I was just joking! What is your deal?

You implied coaching doesn't matter and stated that even Lombardi couldn't have won Monday night. I supplied a contrary theory.

Dude, settle down with the personal attacks. Damn man!

You started the attack. I simply defended myself in what I thought was a humorous manner.

As for going back to JSO, I was one of the original guys asked to come to Packerrats.com when it first started. So settle down, learn to relax and make your points with out name calling. Trust me bro, you're the one who is acting like this is the JSO page and posts like that is one of the reasons this site was created.

Once again you are stating that I started this name calling. I simply posted a reply to your message showing that blaming the players was foolish. You started the JSO antics. I feel I politely rebuked you in an un-JSO manner. At least I supplied facts in my rebuttal to the name calling you started. Now you are throwing your connection to the moderators on this board in my face to somehow intimidate me. If the moderators want me gone it is their right. I'm sure they don't need your persmission to ban me from this board. Please refrain from the threats especially since it was you who started the name calling as I think I have proven.

[gbpackfan]

What is the name that I called you?

You know what, don't bother. It really isn't worth my time to reply. Get back to the Packers. This is just plain silly.

[MadtownPacker]

If you guys want you can step outside and handle it but when you come back in you have to be friends!

[pbmax]

I couldn't disagree more. Players make plays! Coaches are important but the lack of effort was on the players, not MM and his staff. But, since our society is moving towards the "blame someone else for my faults" way of thinking, I guess you are spot on. MM wasn't perfect last night, but Vince Lombardi couldn't have coached that group of slackers to a victory Monday night! Got to have heart boys, HEART!

Calling me out for placing blame when you are blaming the players and you didn't even have the balls to quote me. You're a boob. JSO is more your speed. No one makes sense over there.

Since you brought up Lombardi:

The 1958 Packers were 1-10-1 coached by Ray McLean. Had slacker players like Starr, Hornung, Taylor, Nitschke, Gregg, Kramer, Ringo, McGee and so on.

The 1959 Packers were 7-5-0 coached by Vince Lombardi. Had the same slacker players. A year later the same slacker players played in the title game but lost. A year later the same slacker players won the NFL championship.

Coaching had nothing to do with it at all. They all just decided without any coaching to stop being slackers. Lombardi just happened to be at the right place at the right time.

I repeat myself, you're a boob.

So is it your considered, non-Boob, opinion that the current Packers have 4-6 Hall of Famers on its roster?

Or might McCarthy have slightly less raw material?

[esoxx]

I equate Jim Bates situation to that of Fritz Shurmur. Both competent, well respected coordinators who just didn't make it to head coach. I'm not sure that means they have any character flaws or skeletons in their closets. Just didn't happen for them. I think age caught up to both though. When you get to a certain point and haven't made it beyond D-Coordinator, you probably get pigeon holed to an extent. As opposed to corn holed.

[Brainerd]

I couldn't disagree more. Players make plays! Coaches are important but the lack of effort was on the players, not MM and his staff. But, since our society is moving towards the "blame someone else for my faults" way of thinking, I guess you are spot on. MM wasn't perfect last night, but Vince Lombardi couldn't have coached that group of slackers to a victory Monday night! Got to have heart boys, HEART!

Calling me out for placing blame when you are blaming the players and you didn't even have the balls to quote me. You're a boob. JSO is more your speed. No one makes sense over there.

Since you brought up Lombardi:

The 1958 Packers were 1-10-1 coached by Ray McLean. Had slacker players like Starr, Hornung, Taylor, Nitschke, Gregg, Kramer, Ringo, McGee and so on.

The 1959 Packers were 7-5-0 coached by Vince Lombardi. Had the same slacker players. A year later the same slacker players played in the title game but lost. A year later the same slacker players won the NFL championship.

Coaching had nothing to do with it at all. They all just decided without any coaching to stop being slackers. Lombardi just happened to be at the right place at the right time.

I repeat myself, you're a boob.

So is it your considered, non-Boob, opinion that the current Packers have 4-6 Hall of Famers on its roster?

Or might McCarthy have slightly less raw material?

Without Lombardi its unlikely the players mentioned would be Hall of Famers. They certainly showed nothing to indicate their future greatness under McLean and others which was my point. Coaching matters. I thought it was a simple concept. Favre was pathetic in what little time he played in Atlanta. Would Favre be Favre without Holmgren?

[Terry]

I couldn't disagree more. Players make plays! Coaches are important but the lack of effort was on the players, not MM and his staff. But, since our society is moving towards the "blame someone else for my faults" way of thinking, I guess you are spot on. MM wasn't perfect last night, but Vince Lombardi couldn't have coached that group of slackers to a victory Monday night! Got to have heart boys, HEART!

Calling me out for placing blame when you are blaming the players and you didn't even have the balls to quote me. You're a boob. JSO is more your speed. No one makes sense over there.

Since you brought up Lombardi:

The 1958 Packers were 1-10-1 coached by Ray McLean. Had slacker players like Starr, Hornung, Taylor, Nitschke, Gregg, Kramer, Ringo, McGee and so on.

The 1959 Packers were 7-5-0 coached by Vince Lombardi. Had the same slacker players. A year later the same slacker players played in the title game but lost. A year later the same slacker players won the NFL championship.

Coaching had nothing to do with it at all. They all just decided without any coaching to stop being slackers. Lombardi just happened to be at the right place at the right time.

I repeat myself, you're a boob.

Well, actually, three future HOF'ers joined the Packers in '59 also, plus Lombardi traded for two others - one an 11 year vet from the Eagles, another a second year player. Plus, by '61, Willie Wood (9 time All NFL player, 8 time pro bowler) and Herb Adderly (considered to be the finest cornerback in the NFL in his time) were on the team. Plus three of the guys you mention were rookies in 1958.

However, I do agree with your later comment about whether some of them would have been HOF'ers without Lombardi. Nitschke probably, same with Gregg and Wood. Adderly, I dunno, maybe - they did have a brilliant defensive coordinator also. Some of the others, who knows, but you're probably right. Interesting discussion, seeing as how I've just finished a huge discussion on this very subject elsewhere. I tend to be of your school of thought on this, but I must say, I've finally begun to think about the other side of the coin more thanks to the brilliant discussion from the other point of view put forward by another guy.

Anyway, in general, speaking of defensive gurus who became less successful Head Coaches, I'll throw out another name here that might surprise you. I've already obliquely referred to him. Phil Bengston.

Mind you, to be fair to Bengston, Nitschke believed (something else I just learned) that the loss of the kicker that year was crucial - that with their previous kicker, they might just have won four more games that year and been in the running for a fourth championship. Such a thing probably would have led to a far different career for Mr. Bengston.