Bates as HC

[Brainerd]

Well, actually, three future HOF'ers joined the Packers in '59 also, plus Lombardi traded for two others - one an 11 year vet from the Eagles, another a second year player. Plus, by '61, Willie Wood (9 time All NFL player, 8 time pro bowler) and Herb Adderly (considered to be the finest cornerback in the NFL in his time) were on the team. Plus three of the guys you mention were rookies in 1958.

Yes, Lombardi added players year by year. Great players. I never meant to suggest that Lombardi won all those championships with just the players from 1958. But much of the core was there in 1958 and McLean did nothing with them. Rookies or not. Lombardi had to actually spend coaching time to rid the Packers of their losing attitude under previous regimes. Much like Holmgren had to many years later.

However, I do agree with your later comment about whether some of them would have been HOF'ers without Lombardi. Nitschke probably, same with Gregg and Wood. Adderly, I dunno, maybe - they did have a brilliant defensive coordinator also. Some of the others, who knows, but you're probably right. Interesting discussion, seeing as how I've just finished a huge discussion on this very subject elsewhere.

Not sure about Wood making the Hall without Lombardi. The story or myth I know goes is that he tried out for the Packers cause no other team wanted him. Lombardi gave him a workout and remarked, as others had before him, that Wood was too small to play. Wood then walked to the goalpost and jumped up and hung on the crossbar. Lombardi gave him a spot on the roster to further prove himself. Not because of his size but because of his heart. Lombardi saw the man inside the player and treated them as men, not just a commodity to further his own career.

Which allows me to expand on a point I made in an earlier post about Favre and coaching. The Atlanta coaching staff headed by Glanville wanted Favre gone. They had given up on Favre. Given up on a slacker player. Where is Glanville and his staff now? Where is Holmgren and the staff he hired for the Packers?

This is why I believe players play only for those coaches they respect. When an entire team plays flat its the coaching not the players and that is what set me off. The blaming of the players when its obvious that MM lacks something and Sanders lacks every attribute a coach needs.

I tend to be of your school of thought on this, but I must say, I've finally begun to think about the other side of the coin more thanks to the brilliant discussion from the other point of view put forward by another guy.

When presented with facts its quite easy to change one's mind. Its just that I never saw a badly coached team in any sport win a championship. In fact dream teams have been known to lose gold medals while teams comprised solely of solid players with heart who are well coached have won gold medals. Miracle anyone?

Anyway, in general, speaking of defensive gurus who became less successful Head Coaches, I'll throw out another name here that might surprise you. I've already obliquely referred to him. Phil Bengston.

Mind you, to be fair to Bengston, Nitschke believed (something else I just learned) that the loss of the kicker that year was crucial - that with their previous kicker, they might just have won four more games that year and been in the running for a fourth championship. Such a thing probably would have led to a far different career for Mr. Bengston.

Yeah. poor Phil. He inherited an aging team that had literally gone where no team had gone before. Different situation than MM.

[Guiness]

I think football coaching is more important, and can more directly affect the outcome than just about any other sport. It's the reason that football coaches were the first to really cash in - they have the most impact on the outcome of the game.

I mean, how much impact can a baseball manager have??? I think he's pretty much limited to 'Go out and get us a hit' or 'If the ball comes to you, catch it and throw it to first.'

[Noodle]

I mean, how much impact can a baseball manager have??? I think he's pretty much limited to 'Go out and get us a hit' or 'If the ball comes to you, catch it and throw it to first.'

There are millions of cry baby red sox fans who'd violently scream "What about Grady Friggin Little!!!!" in countering you on this point.

Note to gbpackfan -- nicely done.

[gureski]

I'd like to point out that Bates was screwed by Thompson and that's part of the reason he didn't become a head coach this year. Bates was turning down interviews because he felt he had an understanding with Thompson that he'd be the next head coach. When Thompson went with McCarthy, it floored Bates and part of the reason Bates was so pissed was exactly because there were so many opportunities this year that he missed because Thompson did what he did.

I just think that needs to be said to those that are saying that there must be something wrong with Bates since he wasn't hired as a head coach. He likely would've been this year had Thompson not strung him out.

With all that said, I keep bringing up the fact that Bates is still under contract with the Packers. It is not inconceivable to me that they could make up before the season is over and Bates could end up either running the defense or helping run the defense. It would take some people putting their pride aside but it's possible. He's already on the payroll. It's his system at work on defense. It could happen. I wish it would.