CURSED IN WISCONSIN AS PACKER...and BADGER FANS......IS IT REAL ??.CONSIDER

[th87]

I will separate my comments between the Packers and the Badgers.

First, the Packers. Most, not all, playoff losses tend to be disappointing to the losing team. Teams are generally evenly matched and games tend to be close. Close losses are disappointing losses. When you have a team that makes the playoffs year after year after year there will be some disappointing losses along the way. For sure, some stand out, such as the final play losses. The Seattle game this past season was particularly excruciating because they seemed to have the game well in hand with only a few minutes left. How many Packer playoff wins have been "disappointing losses" for their opponents?

I am not enough of a Badger fan to discuss their disappointing losses because, to be honest, I don't remember them. With all due respect to the Badger fans on this site, since the Badgers started gaining success in football and basketball, many of their fans have become whiners. Regarding the basketball championship game, there were some poor calls, but officiating did not decide that game. Failed execution throughout the game more so than a bad call here and there decided that game. Instead of accepting that, Badger fans wanted the officials to call the game in a way that would favor the Badgers and help compensate for their failed execution. I watched the game with a group that included one Badger fan and five like myself who had an interest in the Badgers, would like to have seen a win, but were not fans. Most had varying degrees of contempt for Duke. Certainly, all in the group would have preferred to see a Badger win rather than another championship for Duke. Throughout the game comments were about the Badgers blowing opportunities and setting themselves up for a disappointing loss. There were not as many "bad calls" by the officials as many Badger fans seem to think, at least not in the perspective of a group that was basically impartial.

It wasn't just calls though - it was the way that Duke was being allowed to play all of a sudden. Their screens became wider and contained more elbows. They were allowed hand-checking and grabbing. Things like this will certainly affect execution. An extreme example of this is that if you tackled Kaminsky on every possession, you would prevent him from scoring. At that point, can you really make the argument that the Badgers didn't execute? Technically, you'd be right - Kaminsky could have prevented himself from being tackled, but that certainly wouldn't have told an objective story.

[th87]

I think PBs point--which I agree with--was that Badger fans are predisposed to notice bad calls that go against Wisco and to be blind to bad calls that favor our team. Arizona and KY fans were whining up a storm about how the officiating was slanted in favor of Wisconsin. Complaining about the refs is pointless for the team (beyond their control) and for the fans, who are unable to be reliable judges of what is good and what is bad officiating.

KY fans should be happy that Lyles didn't get ejected, let alone not being called for anything at all on the Gasser slap. AZ got to the line on virtually every possession in the second half on absurd calls. Had Dekker not gone nuts in that game, we'd be talking about that instead.

[th87]

The problem in the title game was the consistency of the officiating. I saw a ton of calls that could go either way go Wisconsin's favor also. The tipped ball call was atrocious, anyone can see that. But for the fans and Bo Ryan to BLAME the officials, it's silly. They all sound like pussies. Per usual the Badgers choked down the stretch in the tournament, just this time it was in the title game. They had two of Dukes best players on the bench in foul trouble for long stretches and couldn't capitalize. They weren't whistled for a foul the first 8.5 minutes of the game. They were up 9 with 13 minutes left and 12 minutes later they were down 8. Down 5 with 35 seconds left, they inexplicably danced around with the ball seemingly afraid to shoot for near 20 seconds. I've never in my life seen a team down by two scores with 30 seconds left waste that much time. Blame their offensive ineptitude, and their inability to contain Jones and Allen down the stretch for the loss. Losers make excuses, winners persevere. Same as it ever was. They had ample opportunity to win the title and they pissed it away.

They tried to capitalize by getting Winslow out of the game, and once Dukan was called for blocking when it was clearly a charge, and was also called for charging when it was clearly blocking on Winslow. You can't cliche yourself out of facts like that.

[pbmax]

Any idea that modern sports can't be rigged should see the 2002 Lakers-Kings series as Exhibit A. That was the biggest sports travesty I've ever witnessed, and there was virtually no way that the Kings would overcome that, unless they somehow upped their FG% to 100. There was no hustling, or post-touches that could've overcome that.

Wisconsin's foul deficit was a rarity for a team that fouls among the least in the nation. And they also occurred in critical spots that allowed Duke to stay in the game. A 10-2 advantage is unheard-of, given Wisconsin's style of play. Yes, the Badgers could have executed better, but that wouldn't have somehow made the Duke ref advantage not exist.

No one has made that claim.

[Bretsky]

It wasn't just calls though - it was the way that Duke was being allowed to play all of a sudden. Their screens became wider and contained more elbows. They were allowed hand-checking and grabbing. Things like this will certainly affect execution. An extreme example of this is that if you tackled Kaminsky on every possession, you would prevent him from scoring. At that point, can you really make the argument that the Badgers didn't execute? Technically, you'd be right - Kaminsky could have prevented himself from being tackled, but that certainly wouldn't have told an objective story.

GREAT POST

[pbmax]

The hand checking was annoying all tournament but they allowed it all tournament.

I have no idea what happened to last year's point of emphasis.

[Patler]

It wasn't just calls though - it was the way that Duke was being allowed to play all of a sudden. Their screens became wider and contained more elbows. They were allowed hand-checking and grabbing. Things like this will certainly affect execution. An extreme example of this is that if you tackled Kaminsky on every possession, you would prevent him from scoring. At that point, can you really make the argument that the Badgers didn't execute? Technically, you'd be right - Kaminsky could have prevented himself from being tackled, but that certainly wouldn't have told an objective story.

On the other hand, if he was tackled once on an attempted dunk and went 0 for 15 shooting otherwise while the Badgers lost by one, you might be technically correct to cite the failure to call the foul on the tackle as a reason for the loss, but that also would not have told an objective story.

The championship game was not called that badly. Things that were allowed in that game are allowed in many games. Especially in the second half, the officials called the game in a way that games are played very often, it just happened to be a type of game the Badgers don't play as well. The Badgers at times were struggling to keep up with the aggressiveness of Duke, and when that happens calls tend to go against you.

Dekker's off night from outside and numerous Badgers' failures to score in close and relatively uncontested were much more the cause of the loss than anything the officials did. Carelessness with the ball also plagued them at times. The Badgers didn't have to play an extreme game to win, just a good one.

[Bretsky]

I'm a bit curious how many times everyone has watched this game ? I went to it and then have watched it a couple times with replays. I've watched the second half more times than the first.
Duke got away with plenty in the first half as well. In reality the hand checking and bumping style of defense that they played through the whole game undoubtedly should have led to more fouls being called on Duke...in half one and two. They play a much rougher style of defense than Wisconsin. They don't let you cut without contact. The Badgers are not taught nor do they play defense that way. There is a reason they had the foul record they did the entire season. This second half was called completely different than there other 38 or so games.

Coach K just rided those buys for about ten minutes straight and at halftime and made them his bitch the second half. Kudos to Bobbby Coach K Knight....I give him credit. He owned them.

I'd love to watch the replay of this game with anybody who thinks this was remotely equitable, including the Duke Fans...and go play by play pointing out things. If I could get away with what they allowed Duke to do my teams wouldn't give up a lot of points either.

Every time I watch it again it gets worse.

[3irty1]

The Badgers couldn't buy a call in that second half but I have to agree with Patler that its not the main reason why they lost. Dekker playing at a high level is what got them there and he couldn't keep it up.

[pbmax]

The Badgers couldn't buy a call in that second half but I have to agree with Patler that its not the main reason why they lost. Dekker playing at a high level is what got them there and he couldn't keep it up.

Badger fans have seen Dekker's shot desert him before. But Hayes touch leaving him was a surprise, especially in close.

[Teamcheez1]

Looks like the Cryin' Ryan brigade is in full force. According to Bo (aka the Grinch) every foul by Wisco is questionable, and the other team commits crimes against humanity.

[Bretsky]

Always great to see the Anti WI Troll make an appearance and add nothing to some nice debate

[th87]

I really don't know why we even bother sometimes. Sports have looked inherently corrupt in the time I've been watching, starting with the Bucks getting straight boned in the 80s against the Celtics. There is a reason that the "marquee" teams (Duke, Lakers, Yankees) always seem to pull wins out of their asses. It's because when the game gets tight, the calls/non-calls become much more favorable for said marquee team. It's been most egregious with the Lakers - don't know if you remember the Portland series where the Lakers "came back" from 16 down. I've already mentioned the absurd Lakers-Kings series. So many times I've seen Duke on the ropes, and somehow, they make it happen. I'd say it's because of revenue, because if I'm an industry, why WOULDN'T I try to increase my revenue? And of course they'll get away with it, because how can you really prove there was malfeasance? You'll always have people defending the integrity of the sport, so no cover-up necessary.

A rabbit hole opened up when Tim Donaghy got caught, but no one went in. And of course David Stern managed to make that go away without any further investigation - Donaghy was considered a lone rogue.

Don't believe me - watch the comedy that will unfold when the Bucks play the Bulls on Saturday.

[mraynrand]

I really don't know why we even bother sometimes. Sports have looked inherently corrupt in the time I've been watching, starting with the Bucks getting straight boned in the 80s against the Celtics.

You mean like when they swept them in '83? F the Celtics. So they bought Dennis Johnson and the 76ers bought Moses Malone and won championships Bucks didn't do enough in the front office to win it all, but they were a blast to watch in the old Arena with the organ playing and the awesome crowds. Lanier, Moncrief, Johnson, Winters, Catchings, Cowens, Bridgeman. Loved that team. Great times.

[Bretsky]

I don't remember what year it was...but my college roommates mocked me for years as I recalled a game 7 versus the Celtics in Boston. Milwaukee had the ball with about 30 seconds left and a Bucks player drove into the lane and I perceived him to get hammered going up for a running shot. No foul was called. That was followed directly by a Celtic, I think Dennis Johnson, doing the same thing and drawing a chincy foul with seconds left in the game. Boston won and pretty sure they went on to play LA. I went into my back yard and threw the basketball off the backboard in anger. MY guess is that was around 32 years ago......I should really find out which game that was and watch the final minute to see if I perceive it the same.

I've never believed in the fix due to money but there is evidence out there.