TE problem

[Tony Oday]

4th round Pick to the Bears for Martellus Bennet.

[pbmax]

Kramer was the original "Gronk."

[Not the best highlight film for Maxie the Taxi's punting though. Check it out at about 1:39. I blame the sloppy, slippery field. ]

That game film must be where Mike Stock and Derrick Frost must have learned their trade.

I don't think anyone outside of Green Bay forgot about Ron Kramer directly. If they were like me and had to learn the from history, the only Packers that counted were Lombardi and Jerry Kramer. Maybe Bart Starr, but mostly because he was a coach at the time. When you got older and learned about Kenny Stabler, you heard about Paul Hornung. Browns fans knew who Jim Taylor was because they had to be ready at all times to defend Jim Brown as the greatest from that era.

Everyone then went about confusing Ron with Jerry Kramer because Jerry was all Dick Schaap could talk about.

You had to read Zimmerman or someone more steeped in actual football to learn about TE Kramer.

[hoosier]

Perillo probably knows enough of the schemes and can put his beer barrel weight in there to block for the fatmobile.

Nice image.

[Maxie the Taxi]

That game film must be where Mike Stock and Derrick Frost must have learned their trade.

I don't think anyone outside of Green Bay forgot about Ron Kramer directly. If they were like me and had to learn the from history, the only Packers that counted were Lombardi and Jerry Kramer. Maybe Bart Starr, but mostly because he was a coach at the time. When you got older and learned about Kenny Stabler, you heard about Paul Hornung. Browns fans knew who Jim Taylor was because they had to be ready at all times to defend Jim Brown as the greatest from that era.

Everyone then went about confusing Ron with Jerry Kramer because Jerry was all Dick Schaap could talk about.

You had to read Zimmerman or someone more steeped in actual football to learn about TE Kramer.

Hard for me to see these guys from a younger person's prospective, because I lived and died with the Pack during the Glory Years. At the time there was a lot of "who is the greater" type arguments: Taylor or Brown, Starr or Unitas, Adderley or Lem Barney, Nitschke or whoever, etc. Kramer was ahead of his time, the best tight end in his day IMO. It's hard to argue against the Packer players being the greatest. The best arguments against them was "they're great because the players surrounding them were great." Really? Maybe Taylor, Starr, Adderley, Robinson and Nitschke made the players around them great.

All I know is that at the time I wouldn't have traded ANY Packer star for their counterpart in the league.

By the way, McGee was actually a pretty good punter. He was famous for his freelanced fake punts, but he rarely made mistakes. One hell of an athlete who was probably the smartest guy on the team next to Starr.

[Patler]

Then John Mackey came along, and everyone forgot Ron Kramer.

John who?

Spoken like a true Packer fan!
(I think he played with another John or Johnny somebody at QB.)

[Bossman641]

I'd hate to use the IR-designation on Quarless. I believe the guy you use it on has to be out 8 weeks before he can return.

1 - Quarless isn't that good
2 - who knows who will get injured in the next few weeks. You could lose somebody week 7 and still bring them back at the end of the year.

Time for the FB to prove their worth.

[Patler]

Hard for me to see these guys from a younger person's prospective, because I lived and died with the Pack during the Glory Years. At the time there was a lot of "who is the greater" type arguments: Taylor or Brown, Starr or Unitas, Adderley or Lem Barney, Nitschke or whoever, etc. Kramer was ahead of his time, the best tight end in his day IMO. It's hard to argue against the Packer players being the greatest. The best arguments against them was "they're great because the players surrounding them were great." Really? Maybe Taylor, Starr, Adderley, Robinson and Nitschke made the players around them great.

All I know is that at the time I wouldn't have traded ANY Packer star for their counterpart in the league.

By the way, McGee was actually a pretty good punter. He was famous for his freelanced fake punts, but he rarely made mistakes. One hell of an athlete who was probably the smartest guy on the team next to Starr.

I agree with everything you wrote, and would add a number of other names to the "who is better" arguments that were common: the "Willies" on defense, Davis & Wood, as well as Henry Jordan and Forrest Gregg. What set the Packers apart is that the same Packers were in those debates for years, but the players against whom they were compared changed several times. For example, early in his career Adderley was compared to Lane, later in his career it was Barney. In the middle of his career guys like Fisher and LeBeau were compared to Adderley, but Adderley's greatness stood the test of time. The one Packer I remember who was compared to only one other for his entire career was Jim Taylor. The debate was Taylor vs Brown, with various occasional interlopers from time to time.

I agree that Ron Kramer was ahead of his time, and the best there was for a number of years; but when John Mackey got going, I think he took it to yet another level for TEs. As Kramer's career began winding down, about the time he went to Detroit, I remember admitting to myself that as good as Kramer had been, Mackey was/would be even better. (That was quite an admission for a Packer fan to make regarding a Colt, and one I have never made in the Unitas/Starr debate.)

[deake]

McGee was there before the glory years, it was 3 incomplete passes and "McGee in to punt". He didn't have to punt as much as in the glory years.

[Maxie the Taxi]

I agree with everything you wrote, and would add a number of other names to the "who is better" arguments that were common: the "Willies" on defense, Davis & Wood, as well as Henry Jordan and Forrest Gregg. What set the Packers apart is that the same Packers were in those debates for years, but the players against whom they were compared changed several times. For example, early in his career Adderley was compared to Lane, later in his career it was Barney. In the middle of his career guys like Fisher and LeBeau were compared to Adderley, but Adderley's greatness stood the test of time. The one Packer I remember who was compared to only one other for his entire career was Jim Taylor. The debate was Taylor vs Brown, with various occasional interlopers from time to time.

I agree that Ron Kramer was ahead of his time, and the best there was for a number of years; but when John Mackey got going, I think he took it to yet another level for TEs. As Kramer's career began winding down, about the time he went to Detroit, I remember admitting to myself that as good as Kramer had been, Mackey was/would be even better. (That was quite an admission for a Packer fan to make regarding a Colt, and one I have never made in the Unitas/Starr debate.)

I am still not willing to make that admission.

I think Mackey benefited greatly from the pass-oriented offense of Unitas and company. The Packers were more rush first and pass second. Kramer was a blocker first. If Mackey played for the Pack and Kramer for the Colts, their stats might be reversed and today's John Mackey Award might be the Ron Kramer Award.

At least that's my story and I'm sticking to it.

[Patler]

McGee was the punter when teams had few if any specialists. When rosters expanded to 40 in the mid '60s, there was room for a punting specialist, a kicking specialist, etc. But, in his time, McGee was a pretty good punter, as was Boyd Dowler for a few years.

[Patler]

I am still not willing to make that admission.

I think Mackey benefited greatly from the pass-oriented offense of Unitas and company. The Packers were more rush first and pass second. Kramer was a blocker first. If Mackey played for the Pack and Kramer for the Colts, their stats might be reversed and today's John Mackey Award might be the Ron Kramer Award.

At least that's my story and I'm sticking to it.

I wouldn't argue strenuously against you, either. In some ways, Kramer may have made it possible for Mackey to be Mackey, by showing how an athletic TE could be a legitimate receiving threat. Kramer was a devastating blocker; of course, he was as big as any of the Packer's o-linemen at the time. Mackey wasn't quite as big, but was probably faster and almost impossible for one DB of that time to tackle. Great hands, too; although I remember Kramer as very sure-handed too.

[Maxie the Taxi]

By the way, Patler, you're so right about the "Who is better?" names you added. Of the four, only Gregg has occasionally got his due and he was the only one drafted. Davis and Jordan were perfect examples of players who came into their own after being traded to the Packers. Wood, of course, was the undrafted free agent made good. Despite all the big names around them, Davis, Jordan and Wood were the heart of that Packer defense (along with Nitschke)...and I mean "heart." Davis especially. I can't imagine that defense without him. IMO, Davis was the Reggie White of his era.

[Patler]

By the way, Patler, you're so right about the "Who is better?" names you added. Of the four, only Gregg has occasionally got his due and he was the only one drafted. Davis and Jordan were perfect examples of players who came into their own after being traded to the Packers. Wood, of course, was the undrafted free agent made good. Despite all the big names around them, Davis, Jordan and Wood were the heart of that Packer defense (along with Nitschke)...and I mean "heart." Davis especially. I can't imagine that defense without him. IMO, Davis was the Reggie White of his era.

Agreed. Not only was Wood undrafted, he had been a QB in college. Who could have expected he would be a tough-as-nails, big hitting, HOF safety? Lombardi, I guess.

[Fritz]

I agree with everything you wrote, and would add a number of other names to the "who is better" arguments that were common: the "Willies" on defense, Davis & Wood, as well as Henry Jordan and Forrest Gregg. What set the Packers apart is that the same Packers were in those debates for years, but the players against whom they were compared changed several times. For example, early in his career Adderley was compared to Lane, later in his career it was Barney. In the middle of his career guys like Fisher and LeBeau were compared to Adderley, but Adderley's greatness stood the test of time. The one Packer I remember who was compared to only one other for his entire career was Jim Taylor. The debate was Taylor vs Brown, with various occasional interlopers from time to time.

I agree that Ron Kramer was ahead of his time, and the best there was for a number of years; but when John Mackey got going, I think he took it to yet another level for TEs. As Kramer's career began winding down, about the time he went to Detroit, I remember admitting to myself that as good as Kramer had been, Mackey was/would be even better. (That was quite an admission for a Packer fan to make regarding a Colt, and one I have never made in the Unitas/Starr debate.)

Seriously did people debate Jim Taylor and Jim Brown? I was but a wisp of a lad in those years, but I recollect - mostly from reading in the late 60's and early 70's - that hands down, it was Jim Brown. In fact, as best my fuzzy memory can recall, Jim Brown and Gale Sayers were #1 and 1A. I thought Jim Taylor was more the fullback type, and Hornung the halfback.

[Harlan Huckleby]

My point is that they could probably IR Quarless, sign a replacement off the street and not see much of a decline. Who, you ask? It doesn't matter.

I think more of Q than most. He has the blocking and receiving skills to function as #1 TE if Dickrod goes down. I know he is a below average starter, but he was significantly better than other guys in camp last summer, as well as any street urchin.