Bosa still unsigned

[pbmax]

Ultimately it comes down to whether they have a right to get the money away from the player whether already paid or not. Procedurely there might be advantages if not yet paid, but it won't change the determination of rights. Besides, chances are he will already have the money anyway because the postponed payment is only until March anyway.

Boss was the third pick in the first round in 2016. Has it been standard for other 3rd picks overall?

[call_me_ishmael]

Joey Bosa? Flop? Did you see the kid play in college? He'll be a beast in short order. I wouldn't sign the deal either if the team isn't following the protocol that other teams do. It's not like he's short on money, his family is very wealthy. There is a collective bargaining agreement for a reason and there is a SOP WRT these rookie deals. If the Chargers aren't following it and yanking him around, why would he sign? They'll be plenty of other teams interested in his services.

[Patler]

But put that aside. Both sides want to be in control of the money for as long as possible.

This is the reverse of the player agents who tried, successfully for a while, to get mega bonuses into the contracts of the early first round picks. Year by year they wore teams down and got the money for lower picks. Before the last CBA, they were close to the 10th pick of the round.

Of course each side wants control of the money for as long as possible, and I completely understand why the union and agent want to make a big deal about it. If he were honest when asked, I would bet Bosa himself would gladly sign and come into camp. In effect he is "taking one for the team", with the team being the NFLPA.

I don't think there is a right or wrong here. I negotiated many contracts in the business world that had huge guaranteed payments upon signing. Sometimes the checks were on the table when the contracts were signed, sometimes they were payable over time. Ultimately, when the time period is short, it is a silly issue to delay a deal unless cash flow is a problem. In the world of NFL rookie contracts it seems to me to be an absolutely stupid issue to keep a player out of camp because it is not the actual players issue, it is the team vs the union, and the player suffers. So, specify it in the next CBA and force the teams and union to address issues of significance instead of quibbling.

[Patler]

Boss was the third pick in the first round in 2016. Has it been standard for other 3rd picks overall?

Has it been standard for the Chargers? Has it even been standard for 1st round picks generally?

My point is simply it is stupid to have an artificial, probably varying line at some level in the first round for treating bonuses differently.

[King Friday]

Did you see the kid play in college?

I live near Columbus. I've seen him a lot. Bosa is a very good prospect. He's not a can't-miss prospect or short order "beast" though. He relied extensively on his superior size and strength in college, along with having a lot of superior talent around him in defensive support. All those advantages are now gone at the NFL level. He's not a guy with freakish speed that can just beat NFL OTs from a three point stance. He doesn't have a wide array of pass rush moves and will need to learn and adapt. However, he is technically sound with his hands and feet for the most part, so I don't think he will be prone to becoming a total flop.

He needs to get his ass into camp and start figuring out what it takes to succeed in the NFL...because I'm not sure he's a kid who has ever had to really WORK to get ahead in football to this point. Some guys relish that challenge...some guys shrink from it. Only time will tell which group Bosa falls into.

[Guiness]

Has it been standard for the Chargers? Has it even been standard for 1st round picks generally?

My point is simply it is stupid to have an artificial, probably varying line at some level in the first round for treating bonuses differently.

Hindsight is 20-20 and I'm sure the NFL sees letting these issues to be negotiable at all a mistake. They should've known that agents are looking to justify their existence, so will pick whatever fight they can. On thee other hand, it might be an artificial line but the Chargers know damn well that they're well above it, and are being obstinate. To answer your question Patler, since the new CBA has been in place, no #3 pick has had both deferred money and offset language.

I agree with pbmax that teams want to hold onto the money because if the player goes off his nut, they have a much better chance of keeping it than trying to get it back. Manziel managed to not get paid for the last two years of his "fully guaranteed" contract.

[pbmax]

Has it been standard for the Chargers? Has it even been standard for 1st round picks generally?

My point is simply it is stupid to have an artificial, probably varying line at some level in the first round for treating bonuses differently.

After the 2012 CBA made slotting iron clad, I can't believe its not baked into the contract terms.

[call_me_ishmael]

I live near Columbus. I've seen him a lot. Bosa is a very good prospect. He's not a can't-miss prospect or short order "beast" though. He relied extensively on his superior size and strength in college, along with having a lot of superior talent around him in defensive support. All those advantages are now gone at the NFL level. He's not a guy with freakish speed that can just beat NFL OTs from a three point stance. He doesn't have a wide array of pass rush moves and will need to learn and adapt. However, he is technically sound with his hands and feet for the most part, so I don't think he will be prone to becoming a total flop.

He needs to get his ass into camp and start figuring out what it takes to succeed in the NFL...because I'm not sure he's a kid who has ever had to really WORK to get ahead in football to this point. Some guys relish that challenge...some guys shrink from it. Only time will tell which group Bosa falls into.

Respectfully, I see some of what you're seeing but he was a clear stud in college that made the players around him better. We'll see if that translates to the pros. I think his athleticism numbers are clearly a cut above many other linemen.

[Patler]

On thee other hand, it might be an artificial line but the Chargers know damn well that they're well above it, and are being obstinate. To answer your question Patler, since the new CBA has been in place, no #3 pick has had both deferred money and offset language.

I agree with pbmax that teams want to hold onto the money because if the player goes off his nut, they have a much better chance of keeping it than trying to get it back. Manziel managed to not get paid for the last two years of his "fully guaranteed" contract.

From the team's perspective, should the Packers be bound to follow a negotiable term in the same way that teams like Cleveland, Detroit, TB, etc. think is a good idea? If it's negotiable, it's negotiable; and maybe more successful organizations who seldom find themselves in those positions really do have better approaches.

My personal opinion, when a contract really is guaranteed, offset should be automatic. The player should be embarrassed to double dip for failing.

[Patler]

After the 2012 CBA made slotting iron clad, I can't believe its not baked into the contract terms.

Ya, had to have been an oversight, something they didn't even think of.

[pbmax]

Ya, had to have been an oversight, something they didn't even think of.

They also missed guarantees and claw backs I think.

[Guiness]

From the team's perspective, should the Packers be bound to follow a negotiable term in the same way that teams like Cleveland, Detroit, TB, etc. think is a good idea? If it's negotiable, it's negotiable; and maybe more successful organizations who seldom find themselves in those positions really do have better approaches.

My personal opinion, when a contract really is guaranteed, offset should be automatic. The player should be embarrassed to double dip for failing.

No, they are not bound, but if they don't follow the precedent, moving to terms more favorable to them (and less favorable to labour) without offering something in return, they are bound to get some push back. Which they are.

Taking "labour's" approach, maybe the team failed to provide the player with the necessary opportunity to succeed, and should be embarassed? See: Lions, Detroit. Collecting a (relatively) little extra money seems fair payment for the 2-3 years of your very short career the drafting team burned through.

[Patler]

No, they are not bound, but if they don't follow the precedent, moving to terms more favorable to them (and less favorable to labour) without offering something in return, they are bound to get some push back. Which they are.

Taking "labour's" approach, maybe the team failed to provide the player with the necessary opportunity to succeed, and should be embarassed? See: Lions, Detroit. Collecting a (relatively) little extra money seems fair payment for the 2-3 years of your very short career the drafting team burned through.

Of course there is pushback. I'm sure they expect it, no matter what they say publicly. However, I won't condemn them for doing it, as some seem to want to.

How many failed early 1st round picks. who are cut before their contract expires, go on to a decent career anywhere else? I also abhor golden parachutes in the corporate world.

[Guiness]

Of course there is pushback. I'm sure they expect it, no matter what they say publicly. However, I won't condemn them for doing it, as some seem to want to.

How many failed early 1st round picks. who are cut before their contract expires, go on to a decent career anywhere else? I also abhor golden parachutes in the corporate world.

Tim Couch! no, wait, Courtney Brown! no, wait, William Green! no, wait, Brady Quinn! no, wait, Brandon Weeden! no, wait Trent Richardson! no wait...Oh, nevermind.

Admittedly, it doesn't seem to happen a whole lot, I can't remember one. Still, I don't like the concept of offset language. If I get fired, I'm entitled to severance pay. If I got 6 weeks severance, should I have to pay it back if I get a new job 2 weeks later?

[Patler]

Tim Couch! no, wait, Courtney Brown! no, wait, William Green! no, wait, Brady Quinn! no, wait, Brandon Weeden! no, wait Trent Richardson! no wait...Oh, nevermind.

Admittedly, it doesn't seem to happen a whole lot, I can't remember one. Still, I don't like the concept of offset language. If I get fired, I'm entitled to severance pay. If I got 6 weeks severance, should I have to pay it back if I get a new job 2 weeks later?

Limited severance pay is one thing, years of guarantee are another. He doesn't lose anything when an offset applies, he gets all that he originally expected. He just doesn't get to double dip for having failed.

Besides, your severance pay, if of any length, is earned for service time. The first round flop generally flopped from the get-go (unless due to injury, like Courtney Brown), so it is hard to say he "earned" a double dip.