TT or M3

[bobblehead]

So, Bretsky asking about second best coach. Given his and my differences in opinion on who is to credit for Packers success, I think we need to hash out the arguments.

I am saying TT is the talent. My argument is thus. He produced a superbowl winner in Seattle. His assistants have produced a superbowl winner in Seattle and completely turned Oakland around. He manages the cap well, rarely losing guys who go on to be studs with other teams. Certainly I would like to see him utilize FA just a little more to fill some holes with vets, but overall he keeps a lot of talent on the field compared to most organizations. He also had the stones to trade Favre at just the right time to have Rodgers flourish.

MM's assistants haven't won. McAdoo finally has made the playoffs, but was spotted a 2 time superbowl champ at QB. MM's "assistant head coach" Winston Moss is on nobody's list despite MM insisting he is the shit. Philbin completely lost that dolphins team. MM seems to have been more influenced from the Schottenheimer tree than the Walsh tree when you watch him count possessions and burn clock instead of putting teams away. MM is brilliant at developing young QB's, but as OC in SF he probably had input in drafting Alex Smith ahead of Rodgers so I question his judgement on certain issues. He also refused to start certain players that excelled after injuries forced his hand.

I blame both of MM and TT for AJ Hawk being a starter for so long.

[Guiness]

So, Bretsky asking about second best coach. Given his and my differences in opinion on who is to credit for Packers success, I think we need to hash out the arguments.

I am saying TT is the talent. My argument is thus. He produced a superbowl winner in Seattle. His assistants have produced a superbowl winner in Seattle and completely turned Oakland around. He manages the cap well, rarely losing guys who go on to be studs with other teams. Certainly I would like to see him utilize FA just a little more to fill some holes with vets, but overall he keeps a lot of talent on the field compared to most organizations. He also had the stones to trade Favre at just the right time to have Rodgers flourish.

MM's assistants haven't won. McAdoo finally has made the playoffs, but was spotted a 2 time superbowl champ at QB. MM's "assistant head coach" Winston Moss is on nobody's list despite MM insisting he is the shit. Philbin completely lost that dolphins team. MM seems to have been more influenced from the Schottenheimer tree than the Walsh tree when you watch him count possessions and burn clock instead of putting teams away. MM is brilliant at developing young QB's, but as OC in SF he probably had input in drafting Alex Smith ahead of Rodgers so I question his judgement on certain issues. He also refused to start certain players that excelled after injuries forced his hand.

I blame both of MM and TT for AJ Hawk being a starter for so long.

MM's coaching tree is certainly of the Charlie Brown variety. McAdoo, Philbin and Jag went on the be head coaches, not a lot after a 10 years. I'm not sure if there are some former assistants have gone on to become co-ordinators.

[pbmax]

I agree with the overall assessment, but I think its closer than your writeup suggests.

Thompson has some blindspots when it comes to drafting talent. ILB and D lineman who can pass rush are the bane of his drafting record. I largely give Trgo a pass, perhaps unearned, because he has had success with lineman elsewhere. T2 also took forever to find another QB.

Not sure how much the "tree" counts. It probably does signify some level of talent on hand in your staff.

McCarthy may have had a hand in taking Alex Smith, but that kid hasn't been the catastrophe that he first appeared to be. A lot of people have made similar mistakes on QBs early. But he made the right call on both Favre and Rodgers as pros and that counts for more in this organization. So I count his QB scouting eye as a win, even if we blame him for Ingle Martin, Graham Harrell and BJ Coleman.

M3 takes a lot of heat off Thompson as he is the only guy talking during the season. He keeps his team together and playing well; he just doesn't see his team go into the tank very often. That takes strength of character over this long a period of time. He can be stubborn, but that also means he stays in charge. I think the Schottenheimer charge is legit in that possessions are looked at on one level only, rather than probability.

Going into a game as an underdog produces some of his best results, which tells me he can coach his way to wins. I do wish the organization took a more structured approach to improving their own coaches, but its hard to argue with their success. I think only Schneider and Carroll work as well together and only GM Bill Coach Belichick do better consistently.

[Pugger]

Ted's GM tree has produced some gentlemen who are doing pretty well with their own clubs (Seattle, Oakland and KC).

[BZnDallas]

My issue with TT is his stubbornness in the FA area. I understand the few free agents he has brought in and the success they have had. Which in my opinion means he should be using it more. Free agency is one of three ways to improve your football team (draft, FA, trades?). When a player in a position of need signs with another team and says in the media he was waiting to hear from the Packers because he always wanted to play for them, but his phone never rang. I feel like TT didn't do his job. A simple phone call to see what his number was? That's not exploring ALL avenues to make this franchise better. For that I think he didn't do his job and think it's possible this game might have passed him by. Especially with the talks about his retirement already. We learned from Holmgren about that mess. And if it is that time I think it might also be time for Elliot to take over.

My issue with MM is his stubbornness in his play calling, his adjustments and/or lack there of at times in the second half and his no killer instinct at the end of games. And I cant forget his challenge flag use. Its like watching two different teams out there. One team in the early part of the game Mike wants his offense to run a certain way. And he will keep trying to succeed until the team is down a couple scores. Then things change, he gets creative and the offense gets in gear and its a rush against time to beat the other team. Sometimes it works and a lot of the times it doesn't. The second team is the one where the offense is humming from the start. Aaron is throwing the ball, he's hitting 5 and 6 different receivers the first quarter and a half, and the running game is slicing the defense. Then Mike's team is up 4 or 5 scores and he tries to run the clock out. This is where 1 of 2 things happen. The Packers either go on to blow the opponent out, or the defense decides to play prevent and its a race against time to hold on to the victory because the offense goes stale and the defense shits itself.

Both of these men however did bring a championship to the organization. I can live with MMs issues. That is head coaching bull shit. He's juggling a bunch of stuff trying to impose his will which isn't necessarily a bad thing even though he knows what works. For my reasons stated above, I think its time to make TT an adviser and bring in Elliot Wolf. I think he understands the importance of the draft and develop way of building a team and staying competitive in todays NFL for the smallest market team in pro sports. But I also think he would utilize the way his dad used free agency to build his teams back in free agencies infancy. But thats just one guys opinion.

[RashanGary]

Getting rid of probably the best GM in football for some random dude because he has a last name that people associate with exaggerated success because the Packers were losers so long, finally winning felt greater than it was........

Um, no thanks. Thompson is better than wolfs dad, so the odds of his random ass son being on that level are somewhere between no and no way. It could happen. I highly doubt it.

Just the name Elliot. He sounds and looks like such a pussy. I just want to punch the overrated stupid out of his face.

[BZnDallas]

Getting rid of probably the best GM in football for some random dude because he has a last name that people associate with exaggerated success because the Packers were losers so long, finally winning felt greater than it was........

Um, no thanks. Thompson is better than wolfs dad, so the odds of his random ass son being on that level are somewhere between no and no way. It could happen. I highly doubt it.

Just the name Elliot. He sounds and looks like such a pussy. I just want to punch the overrated stupid out of his face.

Thats solid reasoning enough for me. I mean its not like he's lived it his whole life. I'm sure he'd never get advice from his father, and in my scenario TT as he was still on the team in an adviser roll. That obviously remains to be seen. But no, no, punching the stupid out of his face is more sound.

[RashanGary]

Thats solid reasoning enough for me. I mean its not like he's lived it his whole life. I'm sure he'd never get advice from his father, and in my scenario TT as he was still on the team in an adviser roll. That obviously remains to be seen. But no, no, punching the stupid out of his face is more sound.

I had a bad day at work and I hate the name Elliot

People kept trying to replace bahktiari last year. I felt the same way.

[Joemailman]

Getting rid of probably the best GM in football for some random dude because he has a last name that people associate with exaggerated success because the Packers were losers so long, finally winning felt greater than it was........

Um, no thanks. Thompson is better than wolfs dad, so the odds of his random ass son being on that level are somewhere between no and no way. It could happen. I highly doubt it.

Just the name Elliot. He sounds and looks like such a pussy. I just want to punch the overrated stupid out of his face.

Except that TT keeps promoting Wolf. Given the track record of some of TT's past assistants (Schneider, McKenzie, Dorsey), it would seem TT has an eye for talent in this area.

[pbmax]

Except that TT keeps promoting Wolf. Given the track record of some of TT's past assistants (Schneider, McKenzie, Dorsey), it would seem TT has an eye for talent in this area.

That is what keeps me from hating the choice as a weird form of nepotism once removed.

[RashanGary]

Let's just keep the best GM in football for a couple years till he's ready to hang up the clipboard and travel bags. Elliot wolf is a young man. The Packers job is the most authoritative GM position in the NFL. No meddling owner. If he wants to run off to some other place, see ya. He'll sit tight though. Thompson is an old man. He has 5 years max in him I'm guessing and Elliot is in a great position to take over the best job in football.

[Rutnstrut]

It's no secret that I am no fan of stubby. However I think he would flourish even more away from TT and with a GM that wasn't so stubborn. I'm not saying that GB needs someone that will go nuts in free agency/trades etc... But instead of 99.7.45% draft and develop, someone that would be willing to go down to 90% when other opportunities arise.

[bobblehead]

I agree with the overall assessment, but I think its closer than your writeup suggests.

I also think its closer and MM overall is a very good coach. However, I was making a case

[bobblehead]

Both of these men however did bring a championship to the organization. I can live with MMs issues. That is head coaching bull shit. He's juggling a bunch of stuff trying to impose his will which isn't necessarily a bad thing even though he knows what works. For my reasons stated above, I think its time to make TT an adviser and bring in Elliot Wolf. I think he understands the importance of the draft and develop way of building a team and staying competitive in todays NFL for the smallest market team in pro sports. But I also think he would utilize the way his dad used free agency to build his teams back in free agencies infancy. But thats just one guys opinion.

3 points.
1) We have no idea if Elliot wolf will be a good GM or not.
2) We have no idea if TT will stick around or become GM of the Bears instead
3) Ron Wolf utilized FA in a short term win now capacity in an era of no salary cap and had the luxury of the single greatest player in history being available and offering said player the most money which God told said player to accept.

[bobblehead]

I had a bad day at work and I hate the name Elliot

People kept trying to replace bahktiari last year. I felt the same way.

I would love to replace Bahk, but there are only so many Joe Thomas on the planet.