Something to consider.

[Pugger]

IMO one big thing this team really lacks is some tough, hard nosed, MEAN football players, especially on D. Mike Daniels is about the only one that fits that description.

I think we lack speed more than anything else on defense.

[Pugger]

Now you're losing it too Nutz.

The Packers haven't contended for the division title. They've dominated the division, having won it outright 5 of the last 6 years.

Beyond that, the Packers have played in the NFC Championship game 4 of the last 11 years, 3 on the road and 1 Favre debacle at home. They've won the Super Bowl in that time. By any objective measure that's called consistently contending for the Super Bowl.

Assuming they shore up their injury depleted pass defense to a reasonable standard, they'll likely once again be contending for the Super Bowl next year.

If you ask Brady he'll tell you Rodgers is the better QB. Brady is the most successful QB of all time, no question.

[Deputy Nutz]

You know what the humor of all this is. The same people saying we are wasting Rodgers are the ones who wanted to trade him so Favre could win one more superbowl.

If you are referencing me, I never wanted Rodgers traded I just wanted him to either hold the clipboard for a season longer, or I wanted the Packers to release Favre. If you all are considering Rodgers as the best QB of all time and he replaced the Hall of Fame Brett Favre I would expect a little more pressure from the fan base considering the Packers have only 2 rings between the Favre era and the Rodgers era.

The problem with the Packers as an organization is there is no one holding anyone accountable. There is no owner, and Murphy is just a talking head.

[gbgary]

Well...maybe not the "best."

Well...maybe not "ever."

Well...maybe not TT.

Well...maybe not even MM.

Well...maybe neither.

Well...maybe TT but MM actually sucks.

Well...actually they both suck.

Well...actually they could be the worst ever.

Well...yeah...TT and MM are the worst ever.

[Zool]

If you are referencing me, I never wanted Rodgers traded I just wanted him to either hold the clipboard for a season longer, or I wanted the Packers to release Favre. If you all are considering Rodgers as the best QB of all time and he replaced the Hall of Fame Brett Favre I would expect a little more pressure from the fan base considering the Packers have only 2 rings between the Favre era and the Rodgers era.

The problem with the Packers as an organization is there is no one holding anyone accountable. There is no owner, and Murphy is just a talking head.

What possible pressure can the fan base provide other than not going to games? I realize complaining on a messageboard SHOULD be enough, but it rings hollow to me.

[pbmax]

The problem with the Packers as an organization is there is no one holding anyone accountable. There is no owner, and Murphy is just a talking head.

Is there no way to hold someone accountable except to fire them or leak your displeasure to NFLNetwork?

[Deputy Nutz]

What possible pressure can the fan base provide other than not going to games? I realize complaining on a messageboard SHOULD be enough, but it rings hollow to me.

I think the fans in Green Bay are some of the most loyal fans in the entire world and the franchise knows it. I think my comment has pointed more at the board of directors and Mark Murphy than at the fan base. Packer fans will always buy crap and sell that place out.

[vince]

I actually think we could have caught Atlanta if the ball had bounced in our favor a couple of times. A couple of bad plays took the air out of our football (Rip getting stripped and Crosby missing FG.) We had our share of TO chances, we just come up short...

...Naw, what am I saying! We got creamed!

Look Maxie, I'm not concerned about your sarcastic ridicule, but at least be honest about it.

I said that if Shields was healthy all year that the Packers would have matched up better and I believe it could have come down to a few plays in that game. Well before they played you may recall since it was in response to your prediction of the Packers winning it all, I said the Packers pass defense in its current state couldn't hang with the Falcons.

And here's another "Something to consider"

If not for the benefit of one late 4th quarter play call in which their opponent passed instead of ran in each of their last two SB wins - calls that have been widely described as "idiotic", the Patriots are likely 0 for their last 4 Super Bowls - with 0 titles since '04 season. Would people then say, Bellichick can't win the big one? That would be nonsense.

Yet people think there's some mystical character trait that makes Bellichick able to win Super Bowls while McCarthy can't. That's nonsense too. What makes Bellichick's greatness is his building of the Patriots sustained winning program over such a long period of time - not his opponents' failure to finish/win games because of bad play calls late in the 4th Q of two specific games.

[Maxie the Taxi]

Look Maxie, I'm not concerned about your sarcastic ridicule, but at least be honest about it.

I said that if Shields was healthy all year that the Packers would have matched up better and I believe it could have come down to a few plays in that game. Well before they played you may recall since it was in response to your prediction of the Packers winning it all, I said the Packers pass defense in its current state couldn't hang with the Falcons.

And here's another "Something to consider"

If not for the benefit of one late 4th quarter play call in which their opponent passed instead of ran in each of their last two SB wins - calls that have been widely described as "idiotic", the Patriots are likely 0 for their last 4 Super Bowls. Would people then say, Bellichick can't win the big one? That would be nonsense.

Yet people think there's some mystical character trait that makes Bellichick able to win Super Bowls while McCarthy can't. That's nonsense too. What makes Bellichick's greatness is his building of the Patriots sustained winning program over such a long period of time - not his opponents' failure to finish/win games because of bad play calls late in the 4th Q of two specific games.

Ridicule?

My post was pure fun aimed at no one or nothing in particular, sincere thinking out loud you might call it.

Sorry you read into my honest stream of drivel something that wasn't there.

[Nice, snappy retort though. I agree with you completely.]

[pbmax]

If not for the benefit of one late 4th quarter play call in which their opponent passed instead of ran in each of their last two SB wins - calls that have been widely described as "idiotic", the Patriots are likely 0 for their last 4 Super Bowls - with 0 titles since '04 season. Would people then say, Bellichick can't win the big one? That would be nonsense.

Yet people think there's some mystical character trait that makes Bellichick able to win Super Bowls while McCarthy can't. That's nonsense too. What makes Bellichick's greatness is his building of the Patriots sustained winning program over such a long period of time - not his opponents' failure to finish/win games because of bad play calls late in the 4th Q of two specific games.

Not here. One of those pass plays was perfectly reasonable. Superior film study by the Pats and a failure to self scout hurt the Seahawks.

[vince]

I don't disagree. The Seahawks and Falcons can be laid blame for their playcall and lack of execution just as the Patriots can take credit for their execution. The fact is one play each game determined the outcome and if that single play is a run instead of pass it likely would have ended differently.

Regardless of the outcome of those two individual plays the overall points of the post remain the same.

[woodbuck27]

Look Maxie, I'm not concerned about your sarcastic ridicule, but at least be honest about it.

I said that if Shields was healthy all year that the Packers would have matched up better and I believe it could have come down to a few plays in that game. Well before they played you may recall since it was in response to your prediction of the Packers winning it all, I said the Packers pass defense in its current state couldn't hang with the Falcons.

And here's another "Something to consider"

If not for the benefit of one late 4th quarter play call in which their opponent passed instead of ran in each of their last two SB wins - calls that have been widely described as "idiotic", the Patriots are likely 0 for their last 4 Super Bowls - with 0 titles since '04 season. Would people then say, Bellichick can't win the big one? That would be nonsense.

Yet people think there's some mystical character trait that makes Bellichick able to win Super Bowls while McCarthy can't. That's nonsense too. What makes Bellichick's greatness is his building of the Patriots sustained winning program over such a long period of time - not his opponents' failure to finish/win games because of bad play calls late in the 4th Q of two specific games.

There is nothing mystical about Bill Belichick. He simply is very intelligent (there is a good reason he is called Hoody Genius) and he works very hard at succeeding.

Here is what makes Belichick arguably the finest HC in NFL history:

a) As the NE Patriots HC he is well aware of what he needs to realistically prepare for and win football games.

b) As he demands of himself he demands total accountability of his coaching staff and all players on his Roster. He is the Pats GM and HC 24 - 7 and totally dedicated to winning in the Regular Season on into the playoffs and to advance to the Super Bowl and enjoy another victory there. He does not hope to win any game. He makes whatever adjustment is necessary to better ensure a victory. He can see what is going on in a game and adjust accordingly. Belichick is a successful and dynamic HC.

c) Bill Belichick has enormous integrity. He started thinking about next Seasons Super Bowl and winning that one; sometime shortly after his team was victorious in Super Bowl LI. Very simply and frankly Bill Belichick is all business and the NE Patriots winning all of the time. He knows what gives him the best chance to direct his team to success.

d) As the teams HC he realises certain needs. He then as the teams GM makes a maximum effort to upgrade his Roster as necessary. He has total integrity and dedication to do all he can to assure that his team meets every challenge.

E) Bill Belichick is a strong disciplinarian. When you become a New England Patriot you better buy in completely to the Bill Belichick way or you are out ! Every single Patriot believes in the other. That infectious attitude is instilled in the entire Roster by Bill Belichick the Pats GM and HC. It is instilled in the players by the entire coaching staff that simply knows that the GM and HC is the very best available. It is simply a blessing to play for the Patriots with Bill Belichick as the teams GM and HC.

[vince]

Woody you're missing the point altogether. I'm not demeaning Bellichick or suggesting that I think his legacy is due to some mystical trait, luck or anything like that.

People are using one or two Packer NFC Championship losses - while ignoring the win and subsequent Super Bowl title - and blindly comparing McCarthy to Bellichick to claim de facto evidence that McCarthy doesn't have what it takes to win NFC Championship games. That's nonsense.

[Deputy Nutz]

The question then, is why do the Packers find them selves on the other side of the coin? I mean if we want to break it down to singular plays why are the Packers losing those more often than winning? After a while it isn't just mystical luck.

[vince]

OK that's the question, and it's a complicated one with no silver bullet answer. I admit it's tempting to take the easy path because we demand answers, but suggesting or thinking the answer is simple is fundamentally misunderstanding the nature of the game in my opinion.

In my opinion, the simplest and biggest reason for their coming up short in the NFC Championship this year was their injury depleted pass defense, predominantly their corners but throughout the defense to some extent. Had Shields been healthy this year, not only may they well have matched up far better against Atlanta, they may have been playing them at home, which is also a huge factor. Failure to cash in on the first two sustained drives also played a role, etc. etc.

There are a lot of possible reasons, and plenty of room for a diversity of opinion. You can look at the receiver situation the year prior, The Doink the year prior... Again none of those are THE reason but probably rank high among them.

The Packers have had their opportunities, which is way more than half the challenge. Then it might be about health, match-ups, home field, turnovers, ball control, game planning, a big play at the right time, etc., etc. The other teams are pretty good too when you're playing at the championship level.

Boiling all that down to coaching is such a gross oversimplification and misunderstanding of a complex situation that it's unrealistic. Bad coaches don't go to the playoffs year after year. Bad coaches don't sustain winning programs. Good coaches lose games, particularly when they're overmatched in certain areas and/or when one individual's execution (or lack thereof) in one or a couple plays so often determines outcomes at the highest level.

Then you have people stating that the GM doesn't even want to win, or the coach is dumb, or in general make claims that are so far out in lalaland that there's just nowhere to go with them.