Mike Pettine

[pbmax]

It's kind of just the opposite of what I saw from the Packers defense this past year. The defense seemed too complex for some of the Packer players to grasp, but it didn't seem to fool the opposition.

Just remember that the phrase MadScientist quoted is the new version of "we want to be aggressive". Everyone wants to do it, few can.

We'll see. For the record, just as Capers had to scale his D back, Pettine and Ryan had to scale back their D in recent years in response to offenses picking up the pace plus going no huddle. Pettine's defenses slipped with the Jets and they mutually parted ways to go to Buffalo.

[pbmax]

I have to say the overall rankings from Football Outsiders (last three numbers) are very good for six of these years. but his pass D relies on a pass rush the Packers don't have right now. Without bolstering it, I think its Capers redux. There will be a bump due to unfamiliarity for at least the first eight games.

                     Overall           FO Rankings
Year     Tm Role Tms WL% T/G Pts Yds   Ovr Pas Run
2009    NYJ   DC  32  11  16   7   5     1   1   7
2010    NYJ   DC  32   5   5   8   6     5   7   2
2011    NYJ   DC  32  13  19  15  15     2   2   4
2012    NYJ   DC  32  23  29  26  23     9  10  15
2013    BUF   DC  32  24  12  22  16     4   2  19
2014    CLE   HC  32  20   9  25  26    11   2  31
2015    CLE   HC  32  31  28  32  28    29  27  26

Provided by Pro-Football-Reference.com: View Original Table
Generated 1/26/2018.

[Fritz]

I was about to say the same thing. Best d-line in team history and none of them drafted by us

Isn’t it ironic, don’t cha think?

Not really. There was no salary cap back then.

[Smidgeon]

I have to say the overall rankings from Football Outsiders (last three numbers) are very good for six of these years. but his pass D relies on a pass rush the Packers don't have right now. Without bolstering it, I think its Capers redux. There will be a bump due to unfamiliarity for at least the first eight games.

                     Overall           FO Rankings
Year     Tm Role Tms WL% T/G Pts Yds   Ovr Pas Run
2009    NYJ   DC  32  11  16   7   5     1   1   7
2010    NYJ   DC  32   5   5   8   6     5   7   2
2011    NYJ   DC  32  13  19  15  15     2   2   4
2012    NYJ   DC  32  23  29  26  23     9  10  15
2013    BUF   DC  32  24  12  22  16     4   2  19
2014    CLE   HC  32  20   9  25  26    11   2  31
2015    CLE   HC  32  31  28  32  28    29  27  26

Provided by Pro-Football-Reference.com: View Original Table
Generated 1/26/2018.

Does Cleveland count as he was "90% administrative and 10% football"? As an aside, this is why Edgar Bennett lost the OC job. McCarthy may call the plays, but he doesn't instill the offense and get it prepared (my read based on snippets of information here and there).

[pbmax]

Not really. There was no salary cap back then.

There was, but Reggie was first at the feed bucket.

After that, the Packers were in good cap shape for a while as everyone else tried to sign lesser Reggie's to more money.

Sean Jones they got because he was near the end. Dotson was a plumb get, even if he wasn't a game changer.

[pbmax]

Does Cleveland count as he was "90% administrative and 10% football"? As an aside, this is why Edgar Bennett lost the OC job. McCarthy may call the plays, but he doesn't instill the offense and get it prepared (my read based on snippets of information here and there).

Not as much as when he was DC. But it was his defense he installed, so you can't ignore it.

[3irty1]

There is no such thing as an alternative to draft and develop. When you have to follow a salary cap like everyone else, the path to a better team than everyone else is to hit your draft picks. Get great players on ridiculously underpriced rookie contracts. Every good team has this working for them.

Furthermore the free agency of Ron Wolf's day is very different from early Ted's day and starting to change again right now. Players like Reggie White will only hit free agency again in the rarest of circumstances. That was a different world. By Ted's day FA was something that bad teams did to get to the salary cap and good teams to put fingers in the dike. In this time period one of the best signings ever was Woodson and he was considered a major risk. Today FA is still retreads and risks but what's changing is the salary cap is exploding faster than contracts can keep up. Teams have money so might as well get some mercenaries to sure up the ranks.

[Anti-Polar Bear]

You constitutive complainers are boring drones. Really. Under TT, Packers picked up few free agents. But when they did, they typically helped. Woodson, Pickett, Peppers, to a lesser extent Brooks, and even Green off the scrap heap.

Instead of the boring and repetitive complaining, how about a decent run-down of possible FA guys and why you'd sign 'em.

Or do a thorough analysis of FA defensive linemen and OLBs signed around the league from last season and see who worked, who failed and why.

Belichickism is not about signing every hotshot free agent every offseason. Instead, it's about utilizing ALL aspects -draft, trade, free agency - of players acquisition to improve/upgrade your roster, regularly and competently.

Yes, the Packers made it all the way to the NFC Title game without Randy Fucking Moss, bah, bah, bah. But would the Pack have been a more potent team with Moss? No doubt. Todd (we'll never forget you!) should've traded for Moss long before the Great Belichick had the chance to steal Moss away.

Deshawn Wynn is your best RB and Beast Mode's available - Trade for the Beast, already! MD Fucking Jennings is your starting FS, well, sign TJ Ward! A still-awesome Tony Gonzalez says he would love to play in Green Bay; What the fuck is the Polar Bear waiting for? Richard Rodgers is more fruitless than an apple tree on the north pole, and Vernon Davis is on the trade block; yeah, lets stick with the fruitless man. Gunter is your #1 CB; Antonio Cromartie's past his prime and on the streets of Baltimore selling dope to pay child supports, but Cro's still better than Gunter - Todd's hibernating (or loathes kneeling players). Hundley sucks and there's Kap.

Etc. Etc. Etc.

[Anti-Polar Bear]

There is no such thing as an alternative to draft and develop.

"Draft and develop" is nothing but a lame excuse incompetent GMs/coaches use to buy time. NFL stands for "Not for Long," doesn't it?

Quarterback is possibly the only position in the NFL in which further "development" is necessary. College is for development. The NFL is for improvement. In other words, players develop in college and in the NFL they seek to get better. As Wolf liked to say, you either can play or you can't in the NFL. An NFL player has to continue getting better, or more likely than not, he will get replaced. You draft a Deshawn Wynn, you get a Deshawn Wynn. You're not gonna "develop" Wynn into a Adrian Peterson.

[texaspackerbacker]

There is no such thing as an alternative to draft and develop. When you have to follow a salary cap like everyone else, the path to a better team than everyone else is to hit your draft picks. Get great players on ridiculously underpriced rookie contracts. Every good team has this working for them.

Furthermore the free agency of Ron Wolf's day is very different from early Ted's day and starting to change again right now. Players like Reggie White will only hit free agency again in the rarest of circumstances. That was a different world. By Ted's day FA was something that bad teams did to get to the salary cap and good teams to put fingers in the dike. In this time period one of the best signings ever was Woodson and he was considered a major risk. Today FA is still retreads and risks but what's changing is the salary cap is exploding faster than contracts can keep up. Teams have money so might as well get some mercenaries to sure up the ranks.

I guess you're too young to remember back in the day George Allen and the Redskins trading away virtually their entire draft almost every year. They were pretty successful at that alternative method of team building. I don't necessarily advocate that or even a modern version of it, but just saying ......

I would argue that the steadily increasing - you say exploding - salary cap makes quality free agent signing more feasible, not less than in Ron Wolf's day. Wolf of course, was way more draft and develop than most GMs - just not nearly to the extent that Ted Thompson was.

The current plight of the Packers is a direct result of Ron AND Ted's flawed way of doing things. It was masked for over two decades by the greatness of Aaron Rodgers and Favre before him, but it caught up with us last season.

What's this stuff doing in a Pettine thread instead of a Gutekunst thread?

[mraynrand]

The current plight of the Packers is a direct result of Ron AND Ted's flawed way of doing things. It was masked for over two decades by the greatness of Aaron Rodgers and Favre before him, but it caught up with us last season.

As always, this is a very stupid take. Success and draft position are inversely related, so that the greater are Favre and Rodgers (and the schemes developed by the coaches who train them) the lower the draft status, which is more responsible for the quality of players than the GMs. Success with draft picks and success with FAs are not guaranteed, but FA failure is literally more costly, making it inherently more risky.

I'll say it one last time - based on overall success, relative to the rest of the NFL, anyone who thinks that Wolf and TT are flawed GMs is a fool.

[texaspackerbacker]

That's pretty weak - blaming it on "draft position" - in light of posting about "Belichickism", etc. and other teams building up overall strength way more than the Packers under similar or not much worse circumstances.

The stupid take is clinging to the crap that Ted Thompson was responsible rather than a drag on Packer success.

[mraynrand]

That's pretty weak - blaming it on "draft position" - in light of posting about "Belichickism", etc. and other teams building up overall strength way more than the Packers under similar or not much worse circumstances.

The stupid take is clinging to the crap that Ted Thompson was responsible rather than a drag on Packer success.

Well I see you've upped the ante on stupidity. First, if you just want to compare to Belichick then fine - you will be disappointed. Because he's the best - by far. It's like an innovator saying if I can't be like Edison or Jobs, then I suck.

Second, Thompson was more successful - bottom line - than all but two or three of his contemporary GMs. So saying he's a drag on Packer success is just stubborn idiocy. He brought in the coach who developed the offense and the QB that GB ran to great success. You can't separate him from those results and cast them onto Rodgers in isolation (well you can, but you look the fool). He brought in the parts that worked with Rodgers - Jennings, Jones, Nelson, Finley, and the O-line (which when healthy was considered one of the best in the NFL - certainly based on FA his O-linemen were well-regarded; e.g. Lang and Sitton). Despite the hatred of Capers and the defense, he did bring in the parts that kept them competitive for many years.

Show me the teams that built up 'overall strength' 'way better' than the Packers over TT's run. And how do you argue that without considering how their bottom line compares in regular season and playoff wins, playoff appearances, and championships. You know, the things that matter.

[pbmax]

"Draft and develop" is nothing but a lame excuse incompetent GMs/coaches use to buy time. NFL stands for "Not for Long," doesn't it?

Quarterback is possibly the only position in the NFL in which further "development" is necessary. College is for development. The NFL is for improvement. In other words, players develop in college and in the NFL they seek to get better. As Wolf liked to say, you either can play or you can't in the NFL. An NFL player has to continue getting better, or more likely than not, he will get replaced. You draft a Deshawn Wynn, you get a Deshawn Wynn. You're not gonna "develop" Wynn into a Adrian Peterson.

College's do less development than ever before as practice time has dwindled. Also hurts when college schemes don't match the pros.

NFL relies more and more on younger players as salary cap make the young ones much less expensive.

Develop is more important than ever.

[pbmax]

I guess you're too young to remember back in the day George Allen and the Redskins trading away virtually their entire draft almost every year. They were pretty successful at that alternative method of team building. I don't necessarily advocate that or even a modern version of it, but just saying ......

Edward Bennett Williams: I gave George an unlimited budget and he exceeded it.

You couldn't do George Allen these days without rebuilding as often as the Florida Marlins. He once traded a draft pick he did not control.