THE PACKERS OFFENSIVE LINE --- BAFFLING

[ND72]

just make sure the guys can pass protect. i know our tackles can, i'm pretty sure if wells is at center he's fine. but you are right, run blocking will improve, or should improve.

[retailguy]

just make sure the guys can pass protect. i know our tackles can, i'm pretty sure if wells is at center he's fine. but you are right, run blocking will improve, or should improve.

Agreed, but I don't believe pass protection was the REAL problem last year. I think the real problems stemmed from the inability to run. Sherman's whole offense centered around the ability to run. When we lost that, it "negated" the 8th man in the box, which limited passing options, which caused it to appear as if pass blocking was suspect. I don't believe it was. There just wasn't anyone open after the WR corps was decimated and the 8th guy didn't need to play in the box.

[ND72]

very good point. when there is no threat to run, then the pass rush comes harder, and less guys are up near the line of scrimmage.

[Bretsky]

Bretsky,

The Packer OL is going to be improved this year by adding NO ONE.

You really just need to trust Thompson. He tanked the OL knowing that then he could tank Sherman.

Now that we don't need guards that can "pull", the guys we've got will be just fine. I'm not worried about the OL, regardless of who plays QB.

I think the "system" that they are installing will cover the poor play or athleticism of the guards that they plug in. Atlanta's OL is proof of that. Bunch of no name lunch pail guys and they outshined half of the "true studs" in this league. It'll work for another couple of years until defenses catch up with it. It is the new "trendy" thing.

The biggest problem with GB this year will be the rookie head coach and staff. It'll look a lot like the Detroit game from last year early in the year. They need time to "jell" and they won't do it in 4 preseason games.

By the end of the season, if the "scheme" works they should be playing pretty good football. If the "scheme" doesn't work, we'll know we're in for a few more years of 4-12.

Me thinks your avatar is spilling too much Kool Aide into your brain.

This interior OL group is devoid of talent. I'll drink the Scott Wells Kool Aide and figure he'll be "OK" at C. But I trusted TT last year with O'Dwyer and Klemm. And Freeman and Little. Yes, I know all cheap FA's and he didn't have a ton of $$. But his pickings have failed so far and he hasn't given me reason to blindly put my trust in him when he is ready to rely on competition between a couple total failurer is 2005 (Whittaker and Klemm) and two guys who were not even developed enough to be given a chance to replace those failures (White and Coston) and didn't even dress on gameday.

Even with the best of schemes, you still need players talented enough to execute it.

[retailguy]

Me thinks your avatar is spilling too much Kool Aide into your brain.

This interior OL group is devoid of talent. I'll drink the Scott Wells Kool Aide and figure he'll be "OK" at C. But I trusted TT last year with O'Dwyer and Klemm. And Freeman and Little. Yes, I know all cheap FA's and he didn't have a ton of $$. But his pickings have failed so far and he hasn't given me reason to blindly put my trust in him when he is ready to rely on competition between a couple total failurer is 2005 (Whittaker and Klemm) and two guys who were not even developed enough to be given a chance to replace those failures (White and Coston) and didn't even dress on gameday.

Even with the best of schemes, you still need players talented enough to execute it.

Not, the kool-aid but the cases of Diet Peach Snapple probably don't help.

Bretsky, O'dwyer and Klemm are both immensely talented, they just can't pull very well. Klemm was pursued by NE. They wanted to keep him. O'dwyer is over the hill, granted, but still OK, you just cannot expect him to be able to be athletic at 35. They're good players, but were HORRIBLE choices for the scheme that Sherman ran. That doesn't make them bad football players, just mis-cast.

Coston and White are too raw, but Barry and Klemm (if they move him again) will do fine with the "team blocking" concept. Flanagan would've done well with this system as well, his line calls, and needing to watch "both guards" as he did last year would be unnecessary. Most of the time on early downs, it'll be 5 guys blocking 4. Somebody will almost always be team blocking. If they blitz, Favre will pick them apart. If they don't blitz, one cut, green finds a hole and he's in the secondary.

The great thing about this scheme is that you don't need the cream of the crop. I disagree with you about the talent level, I actually think its fine for what they're doing, but even if you're right and the talent level is depleted, the scheme should help mask that. Where the problems come in, is if the players cannot execute the scheme.

I firmly believe that the OL is critically important, thats one of the reasons that I did like sherman, as he understood that. However, I also know that this scheme depends on task, not on talent.

Bretsky, I think you are worried about the talent level related to last years scheme. I believe if you look at this years scheme, the talent worries really do disappear....

[Bretsky]

After that explanation, Retailguy, I must ask.

Are you Ted Thompson ?

Regarding your last statement....I'm worried about the talent because it is no better than last years. Maybe the scheme will hide how poor it is, but we have the same players minus a starter on what was a terrible group collectively last year. That's my worry.

[retailguy]

After that explanation, Retailguy, I must ask.

Are you Ted Thompson ?

Regarding your last statement....I'm worried about the talent because it is no better than last years. Maybe the scheme will hide how poor it is, but we have the same players minus a starter on what was a terrible group collectively last year. That's my worry.

If I were Ted Thompson, I'd have extended Mike Sherman. Perhaps you should be glad I'm not Ted Thompson....

Bretsky, I believe in the system. I really do. I don't know if it is going to get implemented quickly, but if it does, I think we'll be OK. You do realize that Coston or White will start this year, don't you? TT's guys are going to get the opportunity to play.... It is going to happen. Wells will be OK at center, and Tauch and Clifton will be solid. If the zone blocking thing works, then any mistakes should be able to be masked by those three. Don't forget about Franks, who is a very solid blocker himself. Also, Kevin Barry is a big man who can play as well.

At this point, I don't disagree with the inaction on the line. And I do believe the conspiracy about getting rid of Sherman. That was planned, long ago...

[Tarlam!]

If I were Ted Thompson, I'd have extended Mike Sherman.

Actually, he did, didn't he? He just rolled over on the deal....

[Tarlam!]

The thing I am concerned about with the zone is the ability to create and uphold the pocket, while at the same time, creating a seam for a runner. Ahmad needs seams to go through the middle, and he nees to see them. Gado, is just too raw to know what to even look for.

Sherm screwed up in the pull-scheme with his guards last year and Beightol shoulda told him the guards were a mis-match. Eventually they seemed to grow into it; I offer Gado's 100 yarders as proof, since he ran behind the same line as Green, only later in the season.

Sherm also relied on the U 71, one year too long. It was truly pathetic. Everytime he ran on the field, I knew we'd get killed in the formation and we did. And I know nothing about the finer points.

[Bretsky]

After that explanation, Retailguy, I must ask.

Are you Ted Thompson ?

Regarding your last statement....I'm worried about the talent because it is no better than last years. Maybe the scheme will hide how poor it is, but we have the same players minus a starter on what was a terrible group collectively last year. That's my worry.

If I were Ted Thompson, I'd have extended Mike Sherman. Perhaps you should be glad I'm not Ted Thompson....

Bretsky, I believe in the system. I really do. I don't know if it is going to get implemented quickly, but if it does, I think we'll be OK. You do realize that Coston or White will start this year, don't you? TT's guys are going to get the opportunity to play.... It is going to happen. Wells will be OK at center, and Tauch and Clifton will be solid. If the zone blocking thing works, then any mistakes should be able to be masked by those three. Don't forget about Franks, who is a very solid blocker himself. Also, Kevin Barry is a big man who can play as well.

At this point, I don't disagree with the inaction on the line. And I do believe the conspiracy about getting rid of Sherman. That was planned, long ago...

OF COURSE I realize Coston or White will start ? There in lies my greatest criticism of TT; he'll settle for that. And the real reason we know one of them we'll start is there is no competition amongst NFL caliber starters there. That's why I'm so upset at TT for not getting us players at OG and LB. We'll surely have some guys on the field that don't yet belong there.

And I'm not saying they can't develop. But relying on guys to start who were not good enough to crack the lineup to put a uniform on last year is nothing short of idiotic is my opinion.

[Patler]

Bretsky;

Think back to the games Wells started at center in 2005. The general consensus was that he played better than Flanagan did. I'm not convinced about him yet myself, but I believe it is possible the center position will be no worse than last year.

The right side of the line will be Tauscher & Barry in one combination or the other. I am convinced of that. Sherman's fascination with the U-71 formation and his refusal to give Barry a chance at starting lead as much to his dismissal as anything else that he did or didn't do.

That leaves only the left guard position as an uncertainty. Between Klemm and Coston I think one will be adequate. Most sportswriters and even the coaches last year acknowledged that Klemm was a better pass blocker at guard than Wells was when he took over. His problem was in run blocking. Klemm's athleticism seems to make him a natural for zone blocking, where as much is accomplished in "screening" a defender as in over-powering him. I know the coaches have so far indicated that Klemm will stay at tackle, but I think that could change. Coston could be a nice player. There were a lot of very positive comments about him during the draft, but it was acknowledged that his background made it unlikely he would contribute as a rookie. Time will tell.

Now if the Packers should happen to swing a deal for Faine (somewhat unlikely in my opinion, but not out of the question) or invest a high draft pick in an O-lineman (very likely in my opinion), the 5-man combination will only get better.

Will this be one of the best lines in the league? No, it won't. Will it be adequate? Yes, I think it will. However, we may have to be a little patient with it as they learn the new scheme.

[retailguy]

OF COURSE I realize Coston or White will start ? There in lies my greatest criticism of TT; he'll settle for that. And the real reason we know one of them we'll start is there is no competition amongst NFL caliber starters there. That's why I'm so upset at TT for not getting us players at OG and LB. We'll surely have some guys on the field that don't yet belong there.

And I'm not saying they can't develop. But relying on guys to start who were not good enough to crack the lineup to put a uniform on last year is nothing short of idiotic is my opinion.

I just don't understand why you're so down on these two guys. Chris White played his guts out last season to "stick". Coston wasn't expected to contribute as a rookie, and its been reported over and over that he's busted his ass both during the season and since. Why shouldn't they have a shot? I agree with shamrock/patler/dude, or whomever he is, Klemm is the backup plan.

If Atlanta can start four undrafted guys and a 7th rounder and lead the league in rushing in their second season of the scheme, isn't it reasonable to expect something passable, even if its not stellar?

Bretsky, truthfully, these comments have some similarity to the whiners in 92 & 93 when everyone was concerned about "jumping on the west coast bandwagon". I respect your opinions, I just don't see the fears. Comparing their performance to shermans scheme really is not fair. Sherman's scheme was completely personnel driven. This scheme is NOT personnel driven. Many different types have done this in Denver and Atlanta. They have ALWAYS had good blocking and have led or come close to leading the league in rushing.

The real question is - has jags got enough experience in two seasons to install this thing and make it work? In my opinion, THAT is what you/us should worry about. I find it difficult to believe he's "mastered" it in two seasons. That concerns me....

[Partial]

I agree with the cynics.

While I think they will hopefully pan out, he should bring in some short-term contract help until they know for sure whether the guys they currently have are the ones they want long term.

[Patler]

I agree with the cynics.

While I think they will hopefully pan out, he should bring in some short-term contract help until they know for sure whether the guys they currently have are the ones they want long term.

Adam Timmerman was a 7th round draft pick in 1995 (#230), didn't do much as a rookie and was thrust into the starting lineup in 1996.

Marco Rivera was a 6th round pick in 1996 (#208), didn't get into a single game that year, played hardly at all in 1997 and became a starter in 1998.

No reason that Coston or White can't do the same.

As far as high draft picks, Taylor missed his first year because of injury, but would have started. Verba, Clifton and Tauscher all were starters as rookies. No reason a high draft pick couldn't do the same this year.

[packrulz]

I think Ken Ruttgers started too his rookie year.