More football: Linebackers

[Zool]

Why does anyone think Matthews is good at ILB?

[pbmax]

Just like with a Corner blitz, anybody with a minimum of NFL level tackling ability and a bunch of speed can get around that corner and wreak havoc.

Name me the people who have succeeded doing this. Because the best edge pass rushers are all over 6' 3" and 233 lbs.

I think you are confusing a safety or slot corner being an effective blitzer with an OLB, who has to stand on the line and hold an edge and gap against the run.

[texaspackerbacker]

If the OLB gets into the backfield quick enough, it disrupts things even if he doesn't make the tackle, and somebody else can clean things up. In that kind of scheme, you have either an ILB looping out or a Safety coming up to set the edge as needed - but most of the time, it isn't needed.

As for Clay Matthews playing inside, I know he gets maligned, but what I saw was better all around play there from him than anybody except Martinez, and an ability to rush from ILB he doesn't seem to have any more from the outside. Burks would get trampled in there; Matthews would not. Clay's shortcoming at ILB, as I saw it, was occasional lack of discipline and inexperience at the position. That should be coachable.

I know, that hasn't been Pettine's MO previously, but with the personnel we have, I wish he'd give it a try.

[run pMc]

Just like with a Corner blitz, anybody with a minimum of NFL level tackling ability and a bunch of speed can get around that corner and wreak havoc.

Extrapolating a little, why not just put 4 DL, 2 safeties and 5 blazing fast corners out there?

I'd think any starting quality LT should be able to put a 200-230 lb defender on skates. Josh Hawkins is blazing fast but I don't want him playing OLB -- he'd get pancaked. 6-3 230 is pretty light for an OLB who has some trouble shedding run blocks. Matthews, Perry, Gilbert all weigh in the 255-265 range.

I don't think Burks has played much OLB, so he'd be learning it, plus I think he's better unblocked so he can use his speed. I could see Pettine sending him on a delayed blitz up the middle, or on a cross-blitz. Capers did that with A.J.Hawk and Bishop and got pressure.
I could also see them overloading one side a la Buddy Ryan and sending him and Matthews (or Perry) off the edge in hopes of getting there unblocked.

Everyone thinks Matthews is good at ILB because when they shifted him inside he was less injured and made an iffy defense less leaky. He's always been a bit of a gambler, and he's not nearly as explosive as he used to be, so I could see them eventually moving him inside. For now he's still a productive if overpaid pass rusher and by default one of their two best OLB's so you keep him there.

Just my two cents.

[Harlan Huckleby]

Why does anyone think Matthews is good at ILB?

I thought he did a good job the year he played that position. The complaint was "we miss his edge rush." They moved him back outside and we still miss it.

I bet Matthews is better than Ryan inside. But I defer to the football experts, especially the ultimate hard but unfair judge, Wist. What say you, Wist?

[bobblehead]

I still say Burks is more suited for OLB.

I read everything following this post, but simply said, Burks is almost a classic ILB and would be entirely miscast as an OLB.

[pbmax]

If the OLB gets into the backfield quick enough, it disrupts things even if he doesn't make the tackle

It doesn't disrupt a thing if the offense simply runs through the wide open gap he leaves as he rushes upfield (think KGB) or pancakes him if he stays in the interior.

If I was an OC facing Burks at OLB as a starter, I would run every play right at his facemask.

You need some bulk to mix it up on the line, Burks is a large safety.

Now, could you use Burks quickness to blitz? Absolutely. But there are no guarantees. It takes a different set of physical skills to get the QB down than it does to quickly penetrate the line. He also will need to defeat a RB, who might be bigger than he is.

[pbmax]

I thought he did a good job the year he played that position. The complaint was "we miss his edge rush." They moved him back outside and we still miss it.

I bet Matthews is better than Ryan inside. But I defer to the football experts, especially the ultimate hard but unfair judge, Wist. What say you, Wist?

The best part of Matthews at ILB was Nick Perry at OLB. Perry was a wall at OLB and no one ran at him after a while. When they did, it hurt the offense. 75% of the improvement that year was Perry starting at OLB in pace of Matthews. The phrase you are looking for is almost Peppers level end play.

Matthews was a tremendous step up in athletic ability at ILB compared to the replacement level dreck that was available. But he had no instincts, was late to diagnose and as a result, did a lot of guessing. His best traits were his speed (if he guessed close to right he could get there) and his tackling. Things that got hit tended to stay down. The word you are looking for here is freakishly athletic stopgap. Go search for Nutz and Matthews and ILB and you will find some finer breakdowns of his shortcomings at ILB.

I could see an argument that Burks and Ahmad Thomas aren't ready and Matthews is still a monster step up in ability inside when you need two ILB. The problem is that Peppers isn't here anymore. Perry is already starting. And if the depth at ILB is bad, it might be worse at OLB. You would have to count on Reggie Gilbert, which is no sure thing to say the least.

[Harlan Huckleby]

You would have to count on Reggie Gilbert, which is no sure thing to say the least.

I have Mack penciled in as starter. Otherwise it makes no sense to move CM, agreed.

[texaspackerbacker]

I thought he did a good job the year he played that position. The complaint was "we miss his edge rush." They moved him back outside and we still miss it.

I bet Matthews is better than Ryan inside. But I defer to the football experts, especially the ultimate hard but unfair judge, Wist. What say you, Wist?

+ 1

[Joemailman]

The best part of Matthews at ILB was Nick Perry at OLB. Perry was a wall at OLB and no one ran at him after a while. When they did, it hurt the offense. 75% of the improvement that year was Perry starting at OLB in pace of Matthews. The phrase you are looking for is almost Peppers level end play.

Matthews was a tremendous step up in athletic ability at ILB compared to the replacement level dreck that was available. But he had no instincts, was late to diagnose and as a result, did a lot of guessing. His best traits were his speed (if he guessed close to right he could get there) and his tackling. Things that got hit tended to stay down. The word you are looking for here is freakishly athletic stopgap. Go search for Nutz and Matthews and ILB and you will find some finer breakdowns of his shortcomings at ILB.

I could see an argument that Burks and Ahmad Thomas aren't ready and Matthews is still a monster step up in ability inside when you need two ILB. The problem is that Peppers isn't here anymore. Perry is already starting. And if the depth at ILB is bad, it might be worse at OLB. You would have to count on Reggie Gilbert, which is no sure thing to say the least.

Are you talking about 2014, when they moved Matthews inside in the middle of the season? Or 2015? In 2015 Perry started only 1 game, and had the worst tackle numbers of his career. Did he replace Peppers on run downs, and replace Neal on passing downs? I don't remember what the rotation was like.

The run defense did improve in 2014 when Matthews was moved inside after the New Orleans game and bye week.

[pbmax]

Are you talking about 2014, when they moved Matthews inside in the middle of the season? Or 2015? In 2015 Perry started only 1 game, and had the worst tackle numbers of his career. Did he replace Peppers on run downs, and replace Neal on passing downs? I don't remember what the rotation was like.

The run defense did improve in 2014 when Matthews was moved inside after the New Orleans game and bye week.

2014 when Matthews moved inside.

[bobblehead]

It takes a different set of physical skills to get the QB down than it does to quickly penetrate the line. He also will need to defeat a RB, who might be bigger than he is.

Just so I understand, you are saying penetration is the easy part, but finishing is the real talent.

[pbmax]

Just so I understand, you are saying penetration is the easy part, but finishing is the real talent.

In my experience, achieving penetration is the real talent (find your opposite number, wait for the cadence, find your gap). Most people can finish once that is achieved. If not, there are pharma options.

But back to pass rushing, I don't know how to quantify the number of quick burst artists versus crazy short space quickness artists, so not sure about which is more rare.

But you do need the ability to put yourself in position to get the QB down to get a sack. Too many guys have a lane, get there, and with a small step up or out, miss the QB entirely.

[bobblehead]

In my experience, achieving penetration is the real talent (find your opposite number, wait for the cadence, find your gap). Most people can finish once that is achieved. If not, there are pharma options.

But back to pass rushing, I don't know how to quantify the number of quick burst artists versus crazy short space quickness artists, so not sure about which is more rare.

But you do need the ability to put yourself in position to get the QB down to get a sack. Too many guys have a lane, get there, and with a small step up or out, miss the QB entirely.

I was more thinking about finishing the defense.