Bob McGinn blasts Thompson for guard decisions

[Packnut]

TT

AS hard as I try, I just don't understand the attitude that some of you have. You keep making excuses for TT's FAILURE to fix the O line problem. Don't you guys get the fact that it is HIS job and that's what he gets paid for.

Where is it written that it's ok for him to make mistakes that lead to the failure of our team to protect the QB? Why is there this attitude since he brought in rookies to start that he deserves time to find out if these guys can get better 2 or 3 yrs from now?

That is not how it works. The rookies are suppossed to be on the bench LEARNING, not getting on the job training. TT has failed dramatically at replacing Wahle and Rivera. The two clowns he brought in last season SUCKED and each and every one of you know that.

He had the money and the draft picks to make some kind of move to at least bring in 1 lousy vet to help us out. What you guys fail to comprehend is that the route TT is going is the SAFE one for him, yet the most painfull one for the fans. This way, he has a "fail-safe" built in. "We need to give the rookies time" is gonna be his excuse.

He need's to be held accountable for his failure with the O line, not given a free pass. Like I said, it's HIS JOB and he gets paid very well for it!

[MJZiggy]

Re: TT

He had the money and the draft picks to make some kind of move to at least bring in 1 lousy vet to help us out.

He brought in teh requisite vet last year and it didn't work out so well. Which retread would you have had him bring this year. He had the money and the draft picks. He used the draft picks. Can we PLEASE see how these kids hold their own before we deem them failures? I'm not asking for 5 seasons, but regular season game or two would be nice...

[Patler]

Well, one of the issues is the team has so many problems that you can't expect to have all of them fixed immediately.

The second is that the line was not as bad in pass protection last year as some suggest it was. By the end of the season, they began to show some life in the running game.

The biggest downside in my mind is that they are starting over this season, for all five players, with a new scheme. I expect a LOT of inconsistency the first half of the season.

[red]

wow great article. i couldn't agree more with it

but then patler comes along with that brain of his, throwing out facts and numbers left and right, and starts to blow the whole theory to hell

still though, i agree with the heart of the article. there were quite a few guards out there that had starts before that were available. we wouldn't have had to give up 50 million to get one of these guys. and i would be alot more comfortable right now with an average nfl guard starting the season for us, as opposed to 2 rookies thay might be good someday, but are still just rookies now.

to put it simply, i would rather have klemm and o'dwyer starting at the guard spots instead of two rookies

now for the fun, i get to try and shoot down one of the masters ideas. only to have it probably blow up in my face later on

patler you said that brett was only sacked 25 times last year, and during the teams peak he was getting sacked between 30 and 40 times. last year brett was scared sh'tless from that line and was being forced to throw before he was ready and was forced into a lot mistakes. did the sack numbers go down because the line was decent, or was it because brett was getting rid of the ball right before getting killed? despite the low number of sacks, that line was very bad last year, and you know as well as i, that the number of hurries and knockdowns were way up last year

[Patler]

I agree Red, it would be nice with at least one veteran guard. Unfortunately, sometimes things don't work the way you want it. There was much trepidation a few years back with two rookie tackles, too, but the situation was what it was, and luckily for the Packers it worked out. I'm sure Wolf would have preferred a vet or two at tackle that year. Unfortunately, it is not likely to work out as well again this year. The Packers were extremely lucky to have two rookies who took off as quickly as Clifton and Tauscher did. To have one would be great, two is asking a lot.

Klemm was the biggest disappointment. While no one suggested he would be an elite guard, most felt he was a good value. I remember a quote from one scout who said Brett Favre would "love Klemm" because of his pass protection ability, even though he was soft in the running game.

[Joemailman]

Red,

I was pretty much with you until the last sentence. I'll take the rookies over Klemm and O'Dwyer because at least I have some hope that the rookies will get better.

It is also important to remember that it's not just the guards who have struggles in the pre-season. Tauscher and Clifton had their problems too. The Ol will need learn to function as a unit before we can really judge what we have here.

[Scott Campbell]

Re: Bob McGinn blasts Thompson for guard decisions

Thompson's decision not to keep Mike Wahle was catastrophic. He was worth his weight in gold. [/b]

If all it required to keep Wahle was to pay him his weight in gold, he'd still be here. He got roughly 10 times his weight in gold.

Do the math McGinn.

[red]

Red,

I was pretty much with you until the last sentence. I'll take the rookies over Klemm and O'Dwyer because at least I have some hope that the rookies will get better.

It is also important to remember that it's not just the guards who have struggles in the pre-season. Tauscher and Clifton had their problems too. The Ol will need learn to function as a unit before we can really judge what we have here.

this brings up an interesting question that was brought up a lot last year. clifton, tauch, and flanny all had times last year when they didn't look that great

the question was always asked, are those guys getting worse, or are they looking worse because they are having to make up for the poor play of the guards?

ithere should be no doubt that when lines play together for long periods, the whole unit looks and plays better.

so the opposite could be said too, a team that hasn't been together long and has all three middle spots with no real experience. they could bring the other two vet guys down

[Patler]

patler you said that brett was only sacked 25 times last year, and during the teams peak he was getting sacked between 30 and 40 times. last year brett was scared sh'tless from that line and was being forced to throw before he was ready and was forced into a lot mistakes. did the sack numbers go down because the line was decent, or was it because brett was getting rid of the ball right before getting killed? despite the low number of sacks, that line was very bad last year, and you know as well as i, that the number of hurries and knockdowns were way up last year

Of course the number of hurries and knochdowns were up last year. You are comparing to a line in 2003 and 2004 that was truly exceptional in pass protection, a line that almost broke the all-time NFL record for fewest sacks allowed.

I don't discount the possibility that Favre avoided sacks last year, but Favre has always done so with his arm and his legs. He has done so his entire career, not just last year. Favre's "rushing attempts" in previous years were mostly to avoid pressure. They were rarely designed runs. Early in his career he would have 40, 50 or more "runs" each year In 1996, in addition to the 40 sacks, he had 49 "rushing attempts" for a mere 2.8 yard average. I would dare to guess most of those were breakdowns in the passing game. Last year he had only 18. Perhaps he should have had a few more "rushing attempts" instead of the interceptions he threw. I think it is obvious that he is less willing to be hit than he was early in his career.

My whole point is that the lines Wolf put together inthe '90s weren't all that great. The line wasn't a stellar one until after Wolf left, although he was the one responsible for all of the players in that fantastic group of Clifton, Wahle, Flanagan, Rivera and Tauscher..

[Packnut]

O line

There are 2 under-lying points that need to be made. The 1st is that I don't thing it's pre-mature to judge our line without a game being played. There is a reason why rookie O lineman for the most part do not start in the NFL unless they are a 1st round pick. To think that our 2 guys are going to be the exception to the rule is un-realistic and is contrary to what history has shown us.

The 2nd is a much more dangerous concept and that is TT's philosophical views on paying lineman. That is an old school out-dated view as the smart GM's have realized that the O line is very important to a teams success. This is what scares the hell out of me about TT and it should worry every Packer fan. This veil of silence that surrounds him is mind-boggling to me. I think it's great that at least a few writers do hold him accountable since when asked, TT always does the 2 step and avoids any answers.

And in answer to the question about what he was suppossed to have done and who he should have brought in. Again, this goes back to my point about it being his damn job to have found someone or made some kind of deal. This after all is what he gets paid for.

[red]

great point made in that last line packnut

it is his job, and as it stands right now, i am not confident that he did everything in his power to get the best o-line he could on the field for this year or last

its like theres no sence of urgency with him. we have an o-line with no experience that hasn't looked good in preseason. TT- oh don't worry we'll be fine

we have only 4 wr's on the roster and if one goes down in the game, we're f$%ked. TT- oh its fine, we're alright there

we have 3.5 cb's for the game today. TT- its ok, things will work out

he's like a stoned hippie

just relax man, things will work out. its all cool

well they sure as hell didn't work out last year

[b bulldog]

Good read but wasn't Wolf the man who picked John Micheals???

[Packnut]

TT

great point made in that last line packnut

it is his job, and as it stands right now, i am not confident that he did everything in his power to get the best o-line he could on the field for this year or last

its like theres no sence of urgency with him. we have an o-line with no experience that hasn't looked good in preseason. TT- oh don't worry we'll be fine

we have only 4 wr's on the roster and if one goes down in the game, we're f$%ked. TT- oh its fine, we're alright there

we have 3.5 cb's for the game today. TT- its ok, things will work out

he's like a stoned hippie

just relax man, things will work out. its all cool

well they sure as hell didn't work out last year

red- my biggest hope is that TT is a genious and all of you will be telling me what a moron I am a few weeks from now.

[red]

Re: TT

red- my biggest hope is that TT is a genious and all of you will be telling me what a moron I am a few weeks from now.

i think we all hope that TT proves to be the genious that some of us don't think he is.

i would be more then happy to be proven wrong

[Patler]

we have only 4 wr's on the roster and if one goes down in the game, we're f$%ked. TT- oh its fine, we're alright there

we have 3.5 cb's for the game today. TT- its ok, things will work out

Sherman played a year with only 4 WRs too. Besides, it is fairly common to have only 4 active on game day. The 5th one doesn't do much good if he is inactive.

Same with the CBs. Typical game day roster is to have 4. The 5th is usually inactive, and doesn't do you any good that day.

The only benefit to a 5th WR or CBis to have one ready to go next week if one of the first 4 is out with an injury, but TT has protected himself pretty well. TT has his "next best alternatives" on the practice squad, with two WRs (Francies and Russell), a CB (Dendy)and a safety (Bigby) all who have been with the team through training camp. He will simply sign one of them to the active roster when injuries occur.

The 4 WRs and "3.5" CBs are nonissues today, and remain a nonissue until one of them is out to start the game.