Comparing Rodgers to others after 174 starts

[RashanGary]

I doubt the highlight reel is what makes great players make great plays. I have never seen a DE mug for the camera on the way to the sack. Once the play is over, sure, but before never because then the great play won't happen. Or do you really think a player like Rodgers runs around trying to make a play because it looks good? Because those are a lot of his best highlights and I don't think I have ever thought 'oh, he is just doing that for the camera'.

I think Rodgers is addicted to the spectacular and the attention that comes with it. Whether it be interception records or deep passes. I think Brady is addicted to winning and cares only about his family and team.

[Upnorth]

Something doesn't add up for me in the arguments, as I read them.
AR is the greatest of all time, but his results have not been great because he doesn't have elite receivers? A true GOAT should be successful even without elite receivers. If he needs elite receivers, he isn't the GOAT, in my opinion.

AR has played with some darned good receivers over the years, even if they are not future HoFers. Driver, Jennings, Jones, Nelson, Adams, Finley. At times he also had capable and reliable receivers out of the backfield, even if they were not elite.

Rodgers may be one of the most talented throwers ever, maybe the most talented. That alone doesn't make him the GOAT as a QB. As some one else mentioned above, the truly greatest QBs use what they have and get the most out of them. I have always had that doubt/reservation about Rodgers, and especially so last year. The truly great ones accept that inexperienced players will make mistakes, and deal with it. The greatest elevate the teams around them.

And with those darned good not HOF receivers he has put up stats that no one else can catch despite having a system that started stalling out in 2013.
I don't put Rodgers as the GOAT, but he is one of the greatest for sure. As to the aspect of accepting other players mistakes, every great QB i have watched has yelled at there receivers from time to time. I don't get the label Rodgers gets compared to the others. Every QB gets upset almost every game from what I can see.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VJgB2M8ex-g

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Oh1dIxeuOro

I was suprised I didn't find any Favre or Marino clips on quick youtube searches... I remember Favre launching on receivers all the time.

[Upnorth]

Good points. I'm prioritizing championships for determination of GOAT. Not to say that other guys aren't great, just not the greatest. And 'great' also can stretch beyond pure technical skill at the position. There are all sorts of intangibles involved, like the mystique a player has. The comparisons of eras would kill Starr and Graham straight up, but Graham dragged his team to 10 consecutive championship games, winning 7. And he came back as an 'oldster' to win one final championship. Montana wasn't a great physical specimen, and he had his low spots, but he was a total gamer, and played some of his greatest games in the playoffs or when games were on the line he just came up big. Marino, Steve Young, Rodgers, and one of my favorites Warren Moon all were fantastic players worthy of being considered for GOAT - and you can easily make the argument that they are physically better and more statistically accomplished than Starr Graham or Brady. But for me, I placed championships up there because of the intangibles of leadership and team success. Please feel free to continue to disagree.

Do you honestly think that Starr and Graham become Starr and Graham without Lombardi and Brown? In both cases, like with Brady, I think the coach made the team. The packers without Lombari, but with multiple future HOF were a below average team in the standings (admittedly the 3 '58 HOF were still growing in '59).
Personally, I feel Brady is a modern Starr, excellent execution in very well crafted system. I also believe that is the goal of all football players, to be the best they can be in a great system.
Unfortunately not all players get a great system, and the GOATs then have to drive the system. However star driven systems are not nearly as sustainable in any sport, let alone the ultimate team sport of Football.

[Upnorth]

I think Rodgers is addicted to the spectacular and the attention that comes with it. Whether it be interception records or deep passes. I think Brady is addicted to winning and cares only about his family and team.

So in the 1.5 to 7.5 seconds that Rodgers has the ball he is looking for attention instead of the play? He is overly protective of the ball so he does shy away from risk, yet he looks for the spectacular throws at the same time? IN a venn diagram of spectacular and safe throws there is not much over lap.

On a tangent, this is the most enjoyable cancelled appointment I have had in awhile. If I seem argumentative today, I think I am letting my thoughts from some comments on PFT about the nature of GOAT out here.

[mraynrand]

Do you honestly think that Starr and Graham become Starr and Graham without Lombardi and Brown? In both cases, like with Brady, I think the coach made the team. The packers without Lombari, but with multiple future HOF were a below average team in the standings (admittedly the 3 '58 HOF were still growing in '59).
Personally, I feel Brady is a modern Starr, excellent execution in very well crafted system. I also believe that is the goal of all football players, to be the best they can be in a great system.
Unfortunately not all players get a great system, and the GOATs then have to drive the system. However star driven systems are not nearly as sustainable in any sport, let alone the ultimate team sport of Football.

Good points.

Team sports are highly interlinked.

Anyone else see how the other night GS brought in Iguodala, played defense and crushed the Raptors without several stars?

[Patler]

Something doesn't add up for me in the arguments, as I read them.
AR is the greatest of all time, but his results have not been great because he doesn't have elite receivers? A true GOAT should be successful even without elite receivers. If he needs elite receivers, he isn't the GOAT, in my opinion.

AR has played with some darned good receivers over the years, even if they are not future HoFers. Driver, Jennings, Jones, Nelson, Adams, Finley. At times he also had capable and reliable receivers out of the backfield, even if they were not elite.

Rodgers may be one of the most talented throwers ever, maybe the most talented. That alone doesn't make him the GOAT as a QB. As some one else mentioned above, the truly greatest QBs use what they have and get the most out of them. I have always had that doubt/reservation about Rodgers, and especially so last year. The truly great ones accept that inexperienced players will make mistakes, and deal with it. The greatest elevate the teams around them.

And with those darned good not HOF receivers he has put up stats that no one else can catch despite having a system that started stalling out in 2013.
I don't put Rodgers as the GOAT, but he is one of the greatest for sure. As to the aspect of accepting other players mistakes, every great QB i have watched has yelled at there receivers from time to time. I don't get the label Rodgers gets compared to the others. Every QB gets upset almost every game from what I can see.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VJgB2M8ex-g

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Oh1dIxeuOro

I was suprised I didn't find any Favre or Marino clips on quick youtube searches... I remember Favre launching on receivers all the time.

Certainly Rodgers is one of the most statistically accomplished QBs ever. I never intended to suggest differently.

I think my point regarding inexperienced players was misunderstood. I wasn't criticizing him for calling out, or yelling at their mistakes. That kind of thing always happens. My concern is his ability to use them even with their mistakes. At times he seemed to totally ignore them, and the players themselves said as much. He became so focused on Adams that plays available to others were passed up. There were some good videos at the end of the season that showed as much

Favre often got angry at WRs screw-ups, but that didn't stop him from throwing to them, even in ill-advised situations. One year GB went through something like 10 or 11 WRs due to injuries, and Favre commented that he didn't always know their names, but if they had the right jersey on he would throw to them.

I think Rodgers didn't always give the young guys enough of a chance. Yes, he did throw some critical passes to each, but I think he could have used them even more, even as he demonstrated disapproval when they made mistakes.

[Patler]

So, lets take a different comparison. The initial comparison was of Rodgers at his current spot (174 starts) to some older QBs who started a number of years before Rodgers, or a lot of years before. Lets compare Rodgers to a younger QB, Matt Stafford.

Stafford has 141 regular season starts. (The initial comparison was total starts, including playoffs).

After 141 regular season starts, each:

Yards:
Rodgers - 37,883
Stafford - 38,526

TDs
Rodgers - 309
Stafford - 237

Interceptions
Rodgers - 74
Stafford - 129

[gbgary]

rodgers is unarguably the goat statistically! do i wish he was different than he is in a lot of ways? oh yes! you can't have everything though.

[gbgary]

My concern is his ability to use them even with their mistakes. At times he seemed to totally ignore them, and the players themselves said as much. He became so focused on Adams that plays available to others were passed up. There were some good videos at the end of the season that showed as much

Favre often got angry at WRs screw-ups, but that didn't stop him from throwing to them, even in ill-advised situations. One year GB went through something like 10 or 11 WRs due to injuries, and Favre commented that he didn't always know their names, but if they had the right jersey on he would throw to them.

I think Rodgers didn't always give the young guys enough of a chance. Yes, he did throw some critical passes to each, but I think he could have used them even more, even as he demonstrated disapproval when they made mistakes.

absolutely!

[pbmax]

Favre often got angry at WRs screw-ups, but that didn't stop him from throwing to them, even in ill-advised situations. One year GB went through something like 10 or 11 WRs due to injuries, and Favre commented that he didn't always know their names, but if they had the right jersey on he would throw to them..

I am pretty sure that Billy Schroeder was phased out of active chances for most of a year after one too many instances of waving while on the wrong route. Just a guess, but Driver's first big year might coincide with this. There were a couple of throws to Schroeder that I thought looks like a fit of pique or an attempt to induce injury. It was a weird year and he was a weird player.

Young Favre favored Sharpe above all else for similar reasons that Rodgers preferred Adams.

In my head. 2016 erased whatever last doubts I had about Rodgers being able to create a passing game by himself with modest talent at skill positions. The remaining deficiencies are hard to tease out between Rodgers preferences and McCarthy's offensive shortcomings. We have discussed the Rodgers second offense before (precursor to the extended offense) and I think that is the starting point of WR not being able to fit in immediately to the team's offensive plans.

Even with the clean break we are getting this year, I am not sure we will ever know why this developed, because it developed while the offense was prolific. But I suspect it was McCarthy tendency to prefer to win matchups rather than scheme people open. The slowdowns on offense at the end of 14, most of 15 and the opening of 16 provide clear evidence for why the extended offense was used. But I still am not sure why the second offense came into being.

Honestly, I would prefer to hire a Peyton Manning type (all of one ever produced) to run his own offense rather than a hybrid. Favre was close with the stints in NY and Minnesota, but that was passing game only.

[pbmax]

So, lets take a different comparison. The initial comparison was of Rodgers at his current spot (174 starts) to some older QBs who started a number of years before Rodgers, or a lot of years before. Lets compare Rodgers to a younger QB, Matt Stafford.

Stafford has 141 regular season starts. (The initial comparison was total starts, including playoffs).

After 141 regular season starts, each:

Yards:
Rodgers - 37,883
Stafford - 38,526

TDs
Rodgers - 309
Stafford - 237

Interceptions
Rodgers - 74
Stafford - 129

Stafford makes some foolish mistakes at times, but that offense should be better with him. It frigtening at times, but always seems to break down.

[texaspackerbacker]

rodgers is unarguably the goat statistically! do i wish he was different than he is in a lot of ways? oh yes! you can't have everything though.

You blundered into the truth on several counts hahahaha.

I wish the rest of the team was better - so that Rodgers GOATism would make more of a difference in the record. We'll see if we can have that aspect of everything. I wouldn't bet against it this season.

[smuggler]

Brady's championship last year will always be used against him as GOAT, which is amazing, but it's true. Same reason why people don't really typically think of Starr as GOAT. Brady:Starr::Belichick:Lombardi

The more Brady plays, the weaker his case gets. And the less I respect people who get hard for him as GOAT.

[mraynrand]

Brady's championship last year will always be used against him as GOAT, which is amazing, but it's true. Same reason why people don't really typically think of Starr as GOAT. Brady:Starr::Belichick:Lombardi

The more Brady plays, the weaker his case gets. And the less I respect people who get hard for him as GOAT.

There's no way to know for certain if Lombardi or 'Cheat would have been as successful without their QB generals, although I think they both would have been, given better circumstances. Lombardi didn't live long enough to make it work in DC and I suspect 'Cheat will retire when Brady quits. Still, I don't know of any analyst in the game of football who thinks that Brady winning more championships makes him less of a candidate for GOAT. * It's hard for me to wrap my head around that logic. Brady just keeps winning, even when he's an old GOAT.


*If you find one, please link it, I'd seriously love to read the argument, but I suspect it will be heaping the praise, deservedly, on 'Cheat.

[Upnorth]

There's no way to know for certain if Lombardi or 'Cheat would have been as successful without their QB generals, although I think they both would have been, given better circumstances. Lombardi didn't live long enough to make it work in DC and I suspect 'Cheat will retire when Brady quits. Still, I don't know of any analyst in the game of football who thinks that Brady winning more championships makes him less of a candidate for GOAT. * It's hard for me to wrap my head around that logic. Brady just keeps winning, even when he's an old GOAT.


*If you find one, please link it, I'd seriously love to read the argument, but I suspect it will be heaping the praise, deservedly, on 'Cheat.

He won his first 2 sb as an average QB who was supported by the system. He won his last two sb as an average QB who was supported by the system and arguably the goat te. I think that is the argument. If the system supports him that well at his worst it takes the shine off his best as well