Official 2019 Training Camp Thread

[run pMc]

You must hate the Packers. In Rodgers 2 best years (2011 and 2014) the Packers pass/run ratio was 58/42 and 55/45. I guess you liked last year so much (66/34) that you want that and more. Or maybe you just want to get Rodgers killed.

yeah, 35% is too low. Remember when M3 would try and run the ball with Brandon Jackson and John Kuhn 25-30 times a game? It happened in 2010. They didn't get a lot of yards but it kept things churning along. I'd expect MLF to try and be in the 55/45 neighborhood if he's as much of a run guy as people are saying.

[Radagast]

Good execution of a running game adds more than just yardage for an offense.

1. Execution of a running attack can take some of the pressure off of a QB.
2. Run plays take more time of the game clock.
3. Time of possession increases for a team with a solid running attack.
4. RBs can be rotated in/out of a game as opposing LBs substitute less and by the 4th qtr generally have slowed down.
5. Rotating offensive guards throughout a game can tire out a defensive line that substitute less.

These are a few of the advantages of a quality running game. It in no way suggest that the pass is not King. Actually a good running attack can act to help receivers get open by freezing some players for the instant needed to gain an advantage. Also if as I suspect will happen, all WRs, TEs, and RBs will be specially trained to block on pass plays following completions. Blocking will improve throughout the team and aid on Special Teams as well.

[texaspackerbacker]

You must hate the Packers. In Rodgers 2 best years (2011 and 2014) the Packers pass/run ratio was 58/42 and 55/45. I guess you liked last year so much (66/34) that you want that and more. Or maybe you just want to get Rodgers killed.

Yes, I actually did (and do) feel a degree of hate when they run it into the line on first down - sometimes second too - and waste downs, putting more pressure on the QB to make up for it on third down. It might not be quite as bad with Jones and Williams X 2 as it was with Brandon Jackson and Kuhn, but it would be a drag on the offense and would make games closer than they need to be.

Radagast, what you said could just as well be turned around - pass pass pass, setting it up for a 8 or 12 yard gash run (or maybe 30 or 40 or all the way). A good passing game can open up the D and enable runs, just as much or more than the other way around.

No way (IMO) that LaFleur pulls the crap some in here crave - run first and run often. The team isn't built that way, and he's smart enough to realize that.

[Radagast]

I never said and I never read anyone post that they felt that the Packers should run on 1st and 2nd downs. That is too predictable, but running plays from the same set for both the pass and the run does not allow a defense to target for either. Also, should Rodgers see a defensive player out of place he can audible to a different play, from that set, to take advantage of what he sees.

As I already said, the pass is King, but the running game is a teams meat and potatoes. Combined with strong screen plays where well planned blocking is key, a consistent running attack can chew up ground as well as clock. Time of possession can be the determining factor when you want to also keep the other team's offense off of the field. Every series is not going to be collection of 20+ yd passes. Mixing up a well thought out game plan will have it's long flashy plays, but the Champions know how to grind it out in the trenches as well. Remember, what looks like only a short off tackle gain in the 1st qtr may be setting up a defense for a killer screen play late in the 3rd qtr. Also, pass patterns used early in a game could and so often do condition a CB or Safety to expect one thing as the same look is presented later in the game with a different twist or turn that sees a completion for a large gain or TD.

Passing on every play as TEX suggest, would see landslide blitzes and possibly another injury to Rodgers. Don't worry, Rodgers may just have a MVP season, but even he would not discount the importance of the running game. Don't believe it, go to YouTube and watch the Saints as well as the Rams play during their reg season games last season. Their runners gave their QBs a great advantage.

[texaspackerbacker]

Did I say pass on every play? Hell No. But yes, Joe's post above among others did kinda smack of going back to McCarthy's disgusting tendency to run on early downs way too much. I suspect those percentages in 2011 and 2014 reflected getting way ahead in the game and then running clock most of the second half - also called "playing not to lose" by many McCarthy detractors.

I know this really rubs some in here the wrong way when I say it, but the Saints, Rams, Patriots, or whoever have much better offensive lines than the Packers have had in the past decade or so. I always said, it's not that I love passing so much. If the Packers were built like the Badgers - dominant O Line, outstanding runners, and a mediocre QB, I'd be right there with ya'all say run run run - first and often.

[Joemailman]

Did I say pass on every play? Hell No. But yes, Joe's post above among others did kinda smack of going back to McCarthy's disgusting tendency to run on early downs way too much. I suspect those percentages in 2011 and 2014 reflected getting way ahead in the game and then running clock most of the second half - also called "playing not to lose" by many McCarthy detractors.

I know this really rubs some in here the wrong way when I say it, but the Saints, Rams, Patriots, or whoever have much better offensive lines than the Packers have had in the past decade or so. I always said, it's not that I love passing so much. If the Packers were built like the Badgers - dominant O Line, outstanding runners, and a mediocre QB, I'd be right there with ya'all say run run run - first and often.

So your solution to having a bad offensive line is to expose the QB to more hits? To a QB who in recent years has more often than not had a significant injury resulting from hits?

Teams that throw the ball as much as you want the Packers to don't go to the Super Bowl. Actually, nobody throws the ball as much as you want the Packers to. Even the Chiefs last year, which is about as wide open as the NFL gets, were only 60/40. If you bother to look it up, you'll see that championship teams run the ball 40-46 percent of the time.

[pbmax]

Good execution of a running game adds more than just yardage for an offense.

1. Execution of a running attack can take some of the pressure off of a QB.
2. Run plays take more time of the game clock.
3. Time of possession increases for a team with a solid running attack.
4. RBs can be rotated in/out of a game as opposing LBs substitute less and by the 4th qtr generally have slowed down.
5. Rotating offensive guards throughout a game can tire out a defensive line that substitute less.

These are a few of the advantages of a quality running game. It in no way suggest that the pass is not King. Actually a good running attack can act to help receivers get open by freezing some players for the instant needed to gain an advantage. Also if as I suspect will happen, all WRs, TEs, and RBs will be specially trained to block on pass plays following completions. Blocking will improve throughout the team and aid on Special Teams as well.

Read that Tanier piece I linked to. All of this is irrelevant.

Prime Adrian Peterson wouldn't take pressure off Rodgers.

Its not good to take time off the clock when you are behind. Which, not coincidentally, explains the differences that Joe cites to rebut Tex. The reason for the disparities of run/pass in those years? When you are a good team, you get a lead, usually by passing a lot. Then in the second half, you run the ball more to eat the clock. Any insistence otherwise is confusing cause for effect.

You said somewhere that you really want to setup 8 and 12 yard runs. I would also like to setup 25 yard pass TDs, but its a little more complicated than play calling.

Winning TOP, to the limited degree that it points to the winning team, is a result of having the lead. And running the ball with the lead late.

Hard to take advantage of a tired Defense if you are down by 17 points.

With a 53 man roster and 45 game day actives, no one subs out Guards anymore.

[pbmax]

Its not running early that produces the run pass splits that Joe mentions. Its being a good team with a lead in the second half.

If you want proof that causation runs the the other way, again, I refer you to the 2014 Seattle playoff loss. Running more produced nothing but a chance for Seattle to come back.

[Joemailman]

Its not running early that produces the run pass splits that Joe mentions. Its being a good team with a lead in the second half.

If you want proof that causation runs the the other way, again, I refer you to the 2014 Seattle playoff loss. Running more produced nothing but a chance for Seattle to come back.

I don't think you have to be a good team consistently protecting leads to get a 55/45 (or thereabouts) split. After all, the league average last year was 57/43. I think you do have to be good enough to keep games close enough that maintaining a somewhat balanced offense makes sense. The Packers 2018 ratio of 66/34 was likely spurred by the fact that they had 5 games where that faced deficits of 15 or more in the 2nd half.

[Radagast]

I don't think you have to be a good team consistently protecting leads to get a 55/45 (or thereabouts) split. After all, the league average last year was 57/43. I think you do have to be good enough to keep games close enough that maintaining a somewhat balanced offense makes sense. The Packers 2018 ratio of 66/34 was likely spurred by the fact that they had 5 games where that faced deficits of 15 or more in the 2nd half.

Keep in mind that for some it does not matter even if you say that steel is hard, they must put up an argument. For them the running game is not exciting enough or takes to long to gain ground or some other clever reason. However when one wants to keep a Drew Brees or Tom Brady or Philip Rivers off of the field, it is a true advantage to have a good running game. In addition, running the ball is more sure handed in wet/cold conditions.

No matter how much logical reasoning is connected to it, some just can't see beyond their narrow views. Fortunately members like you and others are on board to help quiet the sheep down a bit.

We all know that passing is main weapon of most offenses, yet it is always good to have more than one bullet loaded and ready to fire.

[texaspackerbacker]

So your solution to having a bad offensive line is to expose the QB to more hits? To a QB who in recent years has more often than not had a significant injury resulting from hits?

Teams that throw the ball as much as you want the Packers to don't go to the Super Bowl. Actually, nobody throws the ball as much as you want the Packers to. Even the Chiefs last year, which is about as wide open as the NFL gets, were only 60/40. If you bother to look it up, you'll see that championship teams run the ball 40-46 percent of the time.

You could just run 3 times and punt, and there would be no risk at all for the QB. Risk is what brings reward, and Rodgers' escapability minimizes the risk.

I said I could live with 65-35. I suppose I could even live with 60-40 considering that our RBs are a little bit better than in the past, and that a lot of that running would be sitting on leads and running the clock. Somebody said the Packers were 66-34 last season? I expect that lousy defense (our own) had something to do with that - playing catch up. So undoubtedly the percentage of passes will go down a little bit this year.

Bottom line, though, is that I really don't expect the LaFleur offense to be radically different from what have are used to seeing. If there is improvement - and I fully expect there will be, it will be in the form of better pass patterns and hopefully more open receivers due to the deception thing. Also, of course, I expect our young receivers to be much better than last season.

[pbmax]

I don't think you have to be a good team consistently protecting leads to get a 55/45 (or thereabouts) split. After all, the league average last year was 57/43. I think you do have to be good enough to keep games close enough that maintaining a somewhat balanced offense makes sense. The Packers 2018 ratio of 66/34 was likely spurred by the fact that they had 5 games where that faced deficits of 15 or more in the 2nd half.

You can be terrible at any split. But the Packers as a pass first team look more balanced when winning than losing.

[pbmax]

This is what I am looking for:

Doug Farrah
George Kittle led all tight ends last season with 873 yards after the catch. Travis Kelce finished second with 574. Kittle benefited heavily from Kyle Shanahan's designed openings.

https://twitter.com/nfl_dougfarrar/status/1143931866485088257?s=21

[Radagast]

Bottom line, though, is that I really don't expect the LaFleur offense to be radically different from what have are used to seeing. If there is improvement - and I fully expect there will be, it will be in the form of better pass patterns and hopefully more open receivers due to the deception thing. Also, of course, I expect our young receivers to be much better than last season.

Tex, we thought that you had been keeping up, but GB is installing a NEW OFFENSE. I fully recommend that you go to YouTube and watch a few of the LA Rams games from last season. You will see the Rams run the offensive system that HC LaFleur is bringing to the Packers.While Aaron Jones and Jamaal Williams are not a healthy Todd Gurley, you will see that many of the pass/run plays are run out of the same set. In addition, as some members have already pointed out, WRs will frequently line up in such a way as to avoid being blocked at the line of scrimmage Also, receivers that catch passes will get downfield (planned) blocking help from their fellow teammates. As a WR catches a pass, another WR or TE is already there to block off the WR's defender.

Like we have been saying, it is a new system and one should know what they are talking about before they get in over their heads. LaFleur ran much the same system at Tennessee last season with a less talented team. This warning has been issued to aid those that are posting without knowledge or clarity of understanding. Please, go watch some film before you post any more on this subject.

Thank You !

[Cheesehead Craig]

Yeah you bunch of ignoramuses! Get edumacated. Don't make Radagast turn this car around.