TC OL thread

[RashanGary]

But honestly, having four good players and an average one combined with Aaron Rodgers.... it’s enough to keep us in every game with a good defense.

Most teams don’t have 4 good OL and an average one

[call_me_ishmael]

I don’t agree. I watch a lot of football. Off the top, there’s a LT in Jax who’s a good pass protector and an absolute mauler. The guy in Dallas is more complete as well. I see OL every week who move better and run block better than our guys and still hold up as pass protectors. So I just don’t see it that way. I think we’ve overrated our guys.

I don't rate anyone; I defer to the experts - who rate Bakhtiari as a premier, super star LT via his all-pro (not pro bowl) in 2016-2018.

Bulaga's stats tell the story. Who has he been beat by?

[RashanGary]

I don't rate anyone; I defer to the experts - who rate Bakhtiari as a premier, super star LT via his all-pro (not pro bowl) in 2016-2018.

Bulaga's stats tell the story. Who has he been beat by?

He has movement limitations, especially as it relates to stretch plays, moving pockets or trying to reach second level blocks. The Packers put Bulaga in positions to succeed. It’s similar to the Eagles using Desean Jackson to run deep patterns and Jeffrey more for shallow ones. Bulaga is a good player, but not complete. Same with Bakh. I don’t need experts to tell me what my eyes can see.

[RashanGary]

The top 5 rushers right now, statistically.... 4 of them are similar (McCaffrey, Cook, Chubb and Mack) those four guys are fast, excellent balance, break tackles, can get the edge, accelerate fast, can make something happen behind the line of scrimmage because they’re so explosive, they can burst away even if knocked off their spot initially.

Fournette, regardless of what the stats say, isn’t a complete runner like the other 4. He’s fast, but slow to accelerate. If you knock him off his rhythm, it’s hard for him to get back up to speed. His a agility is lacking. He gets some big runs and has the *stats* but he’s not a complete player like the other 4.

In short, I don’t care what your stats say. I disagree.

[RashanGary]

You can bring in a corner who only knows how to play man coverage and only give him man coverage responsibilities. His PFF grade will not account for his ability to play zone defense because he did not play zone defense and he was only graded on man defense

A second player can be very good at both. He is asked to do both during the game. His grade includes both aspects.

The first player can get a 90 based on How well he was able to do one thing
The second player got an 88 playing two things equally well

What the score doesn’t show is how the first player caused the coach to call predictable coverages and his team got gashed in the run and the pass because the offense knew what was coming

The second player allowed the coach to open up the playbook, causing confusion for the QB and leading to two interceptions for his teammates


How do you account for that in a pff score?


Bakh and Bulaga are not complete. They’re graded on what they’re asked to do. The playbook is limited because there are things they do not do well. There are other players who are more complete, allowing their coaching staffs to be more varied in their approach, hence increasing probability of wins in a way that doesn’t show up in pff grades.


Pff grades are something to look at and think about, but if a person is incapable of seeing the limitations, they’re just another person who insists they’re right but is very very wrong. Thats you, Ishmael.

[RashanGary]

At the end of the day, a good set of wise eyes with enough experience to really grasp full context is better than a pff grade. Every time. There has never been an exception.

[bobblehead]

I think the reason we stink at outside zone is cuz 3 of our OL struggles with movement and space.

Those 3 spots don't operate in space in outside zone for the most part. The guards do. The Tackles literally don't look to the 2nd level playside EVER.

The reason we don't do well at outside zone is because Jones is a weave and push runner, not a plant into the seam runner. Outside zone is superior as it makes for longer runs and punishing DB's more. Cutting back against the grain puts serious pressure on one or 2 guys to beat backside blocks and make a tackle. If they miss....

Williams was proving better at the scheme than Jones before he got hurt. Jones should be able to do it, but every time he cuts back, he either misses the seam or after hitting it cuts again. Maybe williams just doesn't have the vision to make the second cut so he does it better...I don't know why, but he does.

[bobblehead]

He has movement limitations, especially as it relates to stretch plays, moving pockets or trying to reach second level blocks. The Packers put Bulaga in positions to succeed. It’s similar to the Eagles using Desean Jackson to run deep patterns and Jeffrey more for shallow ones. Bulaga is a good player, but not complete. Same with Bakh. I don’t need experts to tell me what my eyes can see.

Nobody has every tool in the box. Bulaga is generally the playside tackle in the outside zone we ran. He doesn't have to reach the second level unless the D aligns in some really funky way. Graham is such a poor blocker that it hinders a lot of attempts to pin the edge. Bulaga is a pretty good run blocker as is Bak. We hand picked 2 guards to run outside zone. Lindsey I don't watch that close, but I am betting he is decent at his assignments. Bak really only has to get in someones way on the backside, we aren't asking him to cross to the center of the field and cut off Urlacher here.

[bobblehead]

It also just occurred to me that we may have run more inside zone against Dallas because they have excellent pursuit LBs so going straight at them was the more effective attack. Some guys are just impossible to knock off course in space. If they really did adjust for that reason its impressive. I'll be paying attention monday night to see how we attack it.

[mraynrand]

It also just occurred to me that we may have run more inside zone against Dallas because they have excellent pursuit LBs so going straight at them was the more effective attack. Some guys are just impossible to knock off course in space. If they really did adjust for that reason its impressive. I'll be paying attention monday night to see how we attack it.

This is right on the money. They played to the strengths of Leeeeeroooooy Jenkins!

[pbmax]

Williams was proving better at the scheme than Jones before he got hurt. Jones should be able to do it, but every time he cuts back, he either misses the seam or after hitting it cuts again. Maybe williams just doesn't have the vision to make the second cut so he does it better...I don't know why, but he does.

If I remember, there are two aiming points for The Flower's outside zone and Jones tends to look at one and if it isn't there, he somehow hesitates his way outside. He is fast enough to get the edge often, but he is past his blocking and it can be easier to stop him there with the sideline.

[pbmax]

It also just occurred to me that we may have run more inside zone against Dallas because they have excellent pursuit LBs so going straight at them was the more effective attack. Some guys are just impossible to knock off course in space. If they really did adjust for that reason its impressive. I'll be paying attention monday night to see how we attack it.

I think there is something to this. I have seen both of their guys makes some great pursuit tackles. They were less clean in this game.

[RashanGary]

Those 3 spots don't operate in space in outside zone for the most part. The guards do. The Tackles literally don't look to the 2nd level playside EVER.

The reason we don't do well at outside zone is because Jones is a weave and push runner, not a plant into the seam runner. Outside zone is superior as it makes for longer runs and punishing DB's more. Cutting back against the grain puts serious pressure on one or 2 guys to beat backside blocks and make a tackle. If they miss....

Williams was proving better at the scheme than Jones before he got hurt. Jones should be able to do it, but every time he cuts back, he either misses the seam or after hitting it cuts again. Maybe williams just doesn't have the vision to make the second cut so he does it better...I don't know why, but he does.

Makes a lot of sense... I’m down.

My observation is that Bulaga, Linsley and Bakh are less agile moving forward or lateral than in pass sets and are a part of the reason we don’t do well in outside zone. Your points also are parts of the reason. We don’t have to agree on everything but I certainly do see your views as a huge part of it too.

[mraynrand]

Ryan Wood

Verified account

@ByRyanWood
Oct 7
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LaFleur asked if it's hard for him to go against his nature as an outside-zone schemer and do more inside zone: "I think that's what coaching is all about. You find out what your guys do well, or maybe where a team is vulnerable that you're playing against, and you attack that."

[pbmax]

Ryan Wood

Verified account

@ByRyanWood
Oct 7
More
LaFleur asked if it's hard for him to go against his nature as an outside-zone schemer and do more inside zone: "I think that's what coaching is all about. You find out what your guys do well, or maybe where a team is vulnerable that you're playing against, and you attack that."

My favorite quote of his so far. This is the proto-molecule of genius.