Lets talk Trenches

[Fritz]

I think Tex is dead wrong, but in a different way than you all do.

Me, I think it's all about your punter and kicker. You have superstars at those two positions, the rest of the team can be mediocre and you'll still end up in the playoffs pretty much every year.

[smuggler]

I think Tex is dead wrong, but in a different way than you all do.

Me, I think it's all about your punter and kicker. You have superstars at those two positions, the rest of the team can be mediocre and you'll still end up in the playoffs pretty much every year.

Top notch satire.

[George Cumby]

That's why smart GM-Coaches keep two punters on the roster.

[Upnorth]

Last year offense red zone td percentage #1 @80%
This year offense red zone td percentage #27 @55%

Skill players unchanged. Oline very changed. Does the oline matter?

[texaspackerbacker]

Dude, when our line played poorly our o went no where. Re watch the game and look at the line. Rodgers avoid pressure a couple times all game, but mostly when not under center it was a designed roll out. Oline don't accidentally block 5 yards right or left of center. It's called a game plan.

I don't know what game you watched, but Rodgers only got a clean pocket 3 or 4 times - and that's more than he gets a lot of times. The moving pocket/designed rollout thing you're talking about isn't used often by the Packers, and when they do use it, there's usually still a lot of pressure. Most of the time when Rodgers is on the move it's because the pressure is on him. Thankfully, not much of that pressure was up the middle, as that is harder to escape from.

Bobblehead, a guy named Brady had something to do with the Patriots winning a lot too. I always said, he gets ten times as good pass blocking as Rodgers gets. That's still true with Tampa. Even when a team is loaded in one or the other "trenches" or both, though, it still is the skill players that win games - or lose them if they mess up. A lot of teams have those trenches covered - we'll see one next Sunday, and they don't win. The Packers - because of Rodgers - and maybe very very few other teams win consistently even with weakness in the O Line or D Line.

[run pMc]

Last year offense red zone td percentage #1 @80%
This year offense red zone td percentage #27 @55%

Skill players unchanged. Oline very changed. Does the oline matter?

Yep. I'd say the RZ issues on O are partly due to OL and partly due to play calling. They've called some head scratchers, but also not executed well.
I would also argue that the relative lack of explosive run plays has something to do with missing starters on the OL.

Brady is the king of getting the ball out quick. You can avoid a lot of sacks that way. He's also a unicorn -- there isn't another QB like him.

I went back and watched the Cincy game -- Rodgers had a pretty clean pocket in general. It's largely been that way this year and last; look at the sacks/hits/pressures numbers and compare to other QBs.

[George Cumby]

Last year offense red zone td percentage #1 @80%
This year offense red zone td percentage #27 @55%

Skill players unchanged. Oline very changed. Does the oline matter?

You and your fact, figures and logic.

[Joemailman]

I don't know what game you watched, but Rodgers only got a clean pocket 3 or 4 times - and that's more than he gets a lot of times. The moving pocket/designed rollout thing you're talking about isn't used often by the Packers, and when they do use it, there's usually still a lot of pressure. Most of the time when Rodgers is on the move it's because the pressure is on him. Thankfully, not much of that pressure was up the middle, as that is harder to escape from.

Bobblehead, a guy named Brady had something to do with the Patriots winning a lot too. I always said, he gets ten times as good pass blocking as Rodgers gets. That's still true with Tampa. Even when a team is loaded in one or the other "trenches" or both, though, it still is the skill players that win games - or lose them if they mess up. A lot of teams have those trenches covered - we'll see one next Sunday, and they don't win. The Packers - because of Rodgers - and maybe very very few other teams win consistently even with weakness in the O Line or D Line.

I think you have a distorted view of what a clean pocket is. It doesn't mean that there are no pass rushers in the vicinity. Of course there usually will be. It means the QB has the ability to step up in the pocket to make the throw. You acknowledged there wasn't much pressure up the middle. Hence, a clean pocket. I believe PFF said Rodgers had a clean pocket on 24 throws Sunday. And that's against one of the better defensive fronts in the NFL.

[RashanGary]

The Packers offense has been a big step down from a year ago largely because of the OL.

I look at the offense in thirds

1/3 QB
1/3 OL
1/3 Skill guys

The QB and skill guys are the same from a year ago. The OL is worse. The whole offense is doing worse because of the OL.

[RashanGary]

If you include the QB with the skill guys then sure, the skill guys are more important.

But the OL is still important. They make up 5/11ths of the offense and about 1/3 of the productivity.

[Joemailman]

The Packers offense has been a big step down from a year ago largely because of the OL.

I look at the offense in thirds

1/3 QB
1/3 OL
1/3 Skill guys

The QB and skill guys are the same from a year ago. The OL is worse. The whole offense is doing worse because of the OL.

That's part of it. But Rodgers isn't as sharp as he was last year. He's missed some throws he was making last year. He also hasn't gotten the ball to Tonyan much yet. For whatever reason, Tonyan isn't getting as open as he was last year. When Rodgers does throw to Tonyan this year, the window is usually very small.

[texaspackerbacker]

I think you have a distorted view of what a clean pocket is. It doesn't mean that there are no pass rushers in the vicinity. Of course there usually will be. It means the QB has the ability to step up in the pocket to make the throw. You acknowledged there wasn't much pressure up the middle. Hence, a clean pocket. I believe PFF said Rodgers had a clean pocket on 24 throws Sunday. And that's against one of the better defensive fronts in the NFL.

In that case, I strongly disagree with PFF. I call a clean pocket when the QB doesn't need to move to avoid or escape the pass rush. I didn't see that more than low single digit times. I'm not knocking our O Line too much. In the context of how we got them - what draft pick, UDFA, etc. and how much they are paid, they performed moderately well. I saw some apparent complaints in here about Rodgers not avoiding the pass rush by moving forward. If you go forward and the receivers are still covered, you have hemmed yourself in which no option except throw it away or risk a pick. If you escape to the side - as Rodgers does often - or drop back further as Rodgers did on the Cobb throw and the Adams throw late in the game, but extend the play and open yourself up to a clearer view of receivers.

[HarveyWallbangers]

The Packers offense has been a big step down from a year ago largely because of the OL.

I look at the offense in thirds

1/3 QB
1/3 OL
1/3 Skill guys

The QB and skill guys are the same from a year ago. The OL is worse. The whole offense is doing worse because of the OL.

Skill guys are the same, but it doesn’t mean they are playing as well. Rodgers hasn’t been as sharp. Tonyan and Lazard haven’t been schemed open as much. MVS has been hurt. OL is a bit worse, but it’s still been top 10 according to most metrics.

[HarveyWallbangers]

And according to advanced metrics we’ve faced 3 (New Orleans, San Fran, Pittsburgh) of the top 6 defenses in the NFL so far, and Cincinnati’s defense is above average also. Chicago is ranked #3.

[RashanGary]

And according to advanced metrics we’ve faced 3 (New Orleans, San Fran, Pittsburgh) of the top 6 defenses in the NFL so far, and Cincinnati’s defense is above average also. Chicago is ranked #3.

I didn’t realize this was the case. The health of the OL and hopefully some competition change will lead to a more productive offense