More Banjo - Packers vs Lions - Part 1

[sharpe1027]

I would disagree. I’d say the offense’s blame is Texas-size and the defense’s is California-sized.

But Joe Barely’s is Alaska-sized.

And MLF agreed with my post that the defense has enough talent - he said things could be fixed “schematically.” Joe Barely better be all “fluid” and “adaptable” as they say in the business world.

I am in no way saying the defense played well. Still, I think the offense made the defense look worse and deserves most of the blame. 21 yards in a half and three points despite being handed great field position after an opening drive turnover. 21 yards? What the actual fuck?

The offense puts together anything resembling a drive the first half and the defense gets a break while Detroits offense sits on the sidelines.

[Fritz]

I am in no way saying the defense played well. Still, I think the offense made the defense look worse and deserves most of the blame. 21 yards in a half and three points despite being handed great field position after an opening drive turnover. 21 yards? What the actual fuck?

The offense puts together anything resembling a drive the first half and the defense gets a break while Detroits offense sits on the sidelines.

I think we basically agree:

Alaska: 586,000 square miles. Texas: 261,232 square miles. California: 155,959 square miles.

The offense was awful, and has been for much of the season. I think we mostly expected that - growing pains and injuries. The big finger-of-blame goes to MLF for not utilizing Aaron Jones when he has him to utilize. The guy is the top offensive talent on that unit, and MLF doesn't get him involved very early or often.

But When you shuffle two defensive linemen out there when the Lions are at your two-yard line, 11 personnel or not, you're just giving away an easy TD. That's an Alaskan-size portion of blame.

[run pMc]

But When you shuffle two defensive linemen out there when the Lions are at your two-yard line, 11 personnel or not, you're just giving away an easy TD. That's an Alaskan-size portion of blame.

https://twitter.com/AndyHermanNFL/status/1707635068296925599

Agree offense was also to blame, and any kind of a sustained drive ending in points would have been a big help.

[Bretsky]

I just watched about six minutes of The Flower's presser after the game. One of the reporters - Pete Dogherty - was trying to ask a question, and I couldn't quite catch it. I THINK it was something like "what the hell happened that you started so badly?" - not in those words, but that question. The Flower just ripped his head off, said it was a BS question, if he knew the answer it wouldn't have happened. I know he just saw his team get beat up, but I thought he was unneccesarily pissy about it. Don't we all want to ask The Flower why the hell his team wasn't ready to play again for the second week in a row?? Maybe the answer is "I don't know." But it's not a BS question.

I also saw The Flower, when asked about the run defense, put his head down for a moment, as if trying to gather his thoughts, or bite his tongue. His comment about it being insane to do the same thing over and over again, and following that with the comment about at least take one phase away - wow, he really was pissed. He tried to redirect it back a bit onto himself, but it's clear he's really angry at Joe Barely. I expect to see a lot more base defense against the Raiders, and probably Jaire on Davante.

I've never seen LeFleur that pissed off. Though he did say he was proud that they at least competed in the second half and didn't fold.

Me, I'd like to know who kidnapped Rich Bisaccia and replaced him with Maurice Drayton in a Rich Bisaccia costume. The team has devoted significant resources to ST, and they looked like their old selves last night. And it wasn't the rookie punter and kicker that were the problem. It was the penalties.

JASON WILDE, who IMO is the best out there covering the Packers and as a media guy 2nd all time to the legendary stud Bob McGinn, was in the room and made some comments after.

He noted everybody was in shock at how MLF snapped. Went on to note it was a very fair questions and honestly a general one that was not so bad..........essentially asking what happened in the first half/slow start.

Added Doughterty, who in general is very well liked and respect by all, was not remotely happy at MFL's reaction, which was not normal and not really appropriate.

[RashanGary]

Pete came out on Twitter and said MLF is consistently respectful to media and he admires that because it’s not always easy to answer those questions. He said everyone has moments where they get pissed and snip back and he’s not offended at all. And doesn’t expect it to keep happening either.

[bobblehead]

The Packers have not been good in any first half this season. MLF should be pissed, not at the question, but at the team and the preparation. They pick up after the half, but they can't come out this pathetic. They have to start better and more prepared. They looked lost on defense and were not dictating anything on offense.

This is typical of young teams. Detroit has been the exception. I wish I could find the post from Dan Campbell's first season when someone said "it seems it takes more than attitude and a head coach that should be a high school gym teacher to win games." That didn't age well.

[bobblehead]

I've been wondering if instead of this all being on Joe Barely or on MLF for hiring him, it's also a function of Guter not drafting super great on defense. He's got Rashan Gary and Jaire Alexander to his credit; Quay Walker looks like he will be very good, and he found (or his scouts found and he signed) Rasul Douglas, and he got one really good year out of Campbell (but only one). But Devonte Wyatt's big "second year leap" has turned into a tiny little step sideways. TJ SLaton is serviceable but no stud, Savage is a disappointment for the #21 overall pick, Adrian Amos was good for a couple years but there's no replacement. I mean, it's not a horrible track record, but maybe they're not as good as I thought?

Ah, I tried. But hell, mostly Guter seems to have done well enough. Plus there's Kenny Clark from the Thompson years. Joe Barely just sucks ass, that's all. You can talk about injuries to Alexander and Campbell, but every team has those. And it's only two.

As I have said, I've got more patience for the offense, which has a new starting QB and lots of young receivers and tight ends, plus the entire left side of the line missing. But the defense - I have no patience for them sucking. They're not as young as the offense, experience-wise. The two preferred starting corners are experienced. One safety is. (The other's a retread.) The top two preferred defensive linemen are experienced. The linebackers are experienced. So in answer to Jimi Hendrix's question, yes, they are experienced.

You worked your way completely through the process to the conclusion I have drawn. There is a lot of talent on that D, it just isn't playing as a unit. Even Savage hasn't been a dumpster fire this year. I honestly can't point to one area and say they don't have the talent. Even Rudy Ford is playing good enough. But they are playing on their heels. Not to lose if you will. I want aggression. I want a guy who should be a high school gym teacher as my DC.

[bobblehead]

I would disagree. I’d say the offense’s blame is Texas-size and the defense’s is California-sized.

But Joe Barely’s is Alaska-sized.

And MLF agreed with my post that the defense has enough talent - he said things could be fixed “schematically.” Joe Barely better be all “fluid” and “adaptable” as they say in the business world.

You guys are losing me. Are we going square miles, or population? Or population per square mile in which case Barely is NY city size blame.

[bobblehead]

I think we basically agree:

Alaska: 586,000 square miles. Texas: 261,232 square miles. California: 155,959 square miles.

The offense was awful, and has been for much of the season. I think we mostly expected that - growing pains and injuries. The big finger-of-blame goes to MLF for not utilizing Aaron Jones when he has him to utilize. The guy is the top offensive talent on that unit, and MLF doesn't get him involved very early or often.

But When you shuffle two defensive linemen out there when the Lions are at your two-yard line, 11 personnel or not, you're just giving away an easy TD. That's an Alaskan-size portion of blame.

Again I fail to read far enough to get the answer to my question.

[run pMc]

This is typical of young teams. Detroit has been the exception. I wish I could find the post from Dan Campbell's first season when someone said "it seems it takes more than attitude and a head coach that should be a high school gym teacher to win games." That didn't age well.

Detroit's offense isn't that young. The only rookies I can think of getting substantial snaps are Gibbs and LaPorta. Their OL is mostly guys with a few years in the league, and Goff has plenty of starts under his belt.
DET's defense has some few younger players, but a fair number of vets there as well. It's a team that started with a lot of talent thanks to the Stafford trade and good drafting and after 2-3 seasons together has started to gel... which is what GB hopes will happen for them in 2024-25. This is the year where GB plays a lot of youth and they learn from mistakes. Next year they should be better and will also start to finally get out of the salary cap hole, and by 2025 you have cap health and a lot of Year 3 or 4 players in their prime.

As for Campbell, I thought he was a kook and still do, although he's not as bad as he first was. He made coaching decisions his first year that straight up lost them games, and his schtick can come off as a joke. He does preach physicality and has a good OC, and his GM has used all those early picks well in general to bring in talent that will make them good for a while (St. Brown, Hutchinson, etc.) I think he has the team's faith and he's turned out to be a better HC than I thought he'd be. One thing I will be very curious to see is how that team handles success. DET has been second to the Browns as a Sadness Factory, it's possible they win the NFCN, let success go to their heads, and get completely blown out in the playoffs, and then go 8-9 next year with a tougher schedule. Then again, they've won 11 of their last 13 games going back to last year, so maybe they will be for real.

[run pMc]

You worked your way completely through the process to the conclusion I have drawn. There is a lot of talent on that D, it just isn't playing as a unit. Even Savage hasn't been a dumpster fire this year. I honestly can't point to one area and say they don't have the talent. Even Rudy Ford is playing good enough. But they are playing on their heels. Not to lose if you will. I want aggression. I want a guy who should be a high school gym teacher as my DC.

Agree. I feel like I've been saying "whole is less than sum of its parts" to describe this defense since the mid-Pettine era. Gute has put a lot of draft capital into the defense, at the expense of the offense. I would expect he is drafting players that are good scheme fits.
He has drafted "projects" like Rashan Gary who have worked out, and some who haven't. There's a certain amount of luck there with the player there (do they have the heart and brain to work hard and learn to be a good pro?) but I'm starting to wonder about the quality of the coaching the players are getting.

Purely cherry picking a coach -- Jerry Montomery has been with the team since McCarthy as DL coach. Can you name a player he's managed to develop into a good pro? (He inherited Kenny Clark.) Would Slaton count?
Ben Sirmans is an ok RB coach.

Stenovich was a better OL coach than current OL coach Butkus, but I think Luke Butkus isn't bad.

The defense and running game were supposed to carry this team early, and both aren't doing the job well. The youth movement is largely on the offense, so experience shouldn't be an excuse for the defense's failings IMO.

[texaspackerbacker]

Oh yeah, Luke Butkus - I just got through saying in another thread that I couldn't even remember the name of the Packers O line coach. I say again, I certainly would not give the guy a pass just because of injuries for the poor play of the O Line against the Lions. On the other hand, I don't want to do what I've criticized others for: panicking, claiming it's a trend, whatever. This was one bad game. Undoubtedly the Packers will bounce back strong and the O Line, even with the injuries will get back to opening holes for Aaron Jones, etc. as they have more often than not.

One thing I have to give the panicky "ya'all crowd" in here credit for is not piling on LaFleur (or did I just miss it when ya'all did hahahaha?). I read a couple stupid media things blaming him, and I suppose ultimately things do fall on the head coach. But the thing about not using Aaron Jones enough, etc., I have to think that is either because of lingering effect of his injury or else being hyper-cautious not to get him re-injured. I have said, and I say again, I'd like to see more of a rotation at RB with Wilson and Taylor getting more carries. It seems like people are coming to the conclusion (that I had much earlier) that the other sort of sacred cow of many people, A.J. Dillon (and his type of RB) is not what we need to have running the ball in most situations.

[sharpe1027]

I haven't seen people panicking. It was a really shitty game and that's been the discussion.

Tex, try a different narrative please.

[run pMc]

I haven't seen people panicking. It was a really shitty game and that's been the discussion.

Tex, try a different narrative please.

Agree. I'm definitely not panicking. This isn't a Bears forum.
2-2 is about where I'd expect them to be honestly. Last year they looked like a BAD team for a long stretch of the season. This year they just look young and inconsistent...maybe that's a "No Rodgers and His Old Crew" effect. I think if they can get healthy and play with more crispness and consistency -- which should come with experience -- they'll be fine. If you predicted between 7 and 10 wins for this team, it's still not out of the question IMO.

[RashanGary]

After watching the Bills and Eagles this year, I sure don’t feel real good about the 23’ Packers. We have a fairly easy schedule and a lot of young players who could get better.

I don’t like our chances this year, but we have a chance in the long run.