IN GUTEBAG, DO YOU REALLY TRUST ?????

[Bretsky]

Hearing about Gouchebag's recent interviews, he feels the Packers roster as is is contructed to compete for a Super Bowl.

As you know I've pointed out, Gutebag never ever admits a mistake. And everybody makes them

So WHEN, do we HOLD Gutebag accountable for this work ? CLEARLY you know what he thinks. We need more production out of the players in the building. So all these high upside RASites, some of which were really never great football players, need better development.

HENCE, INITIAL SCAPEGOAT......BYE BYE DEFENSIVE LINE COACH....you are not doing your job in developing Van Ness....wait...was he really ever a great football players.....or WYATT....etc.

HERE IS A LIST OF GUTE's 1st round draft picks

2018 JAIRE ALEXANDER----18............Great talent, questionable drive
2019 RASHAN GARY --------12...........No Double Digit sack seasons...but solid mostly
2019 DARNELL SAVAGE-----21...........Bust ?
2020 JORDAN LOVE----------26..........Solid, need to step forward instead of backwards again
2021 ERIC STOKES----------29...........Bust ?
2022 QUAY WALKER----------22..........Unsure what we have here but kinda disappointing
2022 DEVONTE WYATT-------27...........SEE COMMENT ON LINE ABOVE
2023 LUCAS VAN NESS -----13---------One Trick Pony, but dam good RAS scores !!
2924 JORDAN MORGAN -----25 ..........Who Knows

HERE IS A LIST of GUTE's 2nd Round Draft Picks

2018 JOSH JACKSON
2019 ELGON JENKINS
2020 AJ DILLON
2021 JOSH MYERS
2022 CHRISTIAN WATSON (He is GUTE's TWO SECOND ROUND DRAFT PICKS)
2923 LUKE MUSGRAVE
2023 JAYDON REED
2024 EDGERRIN COOPER
2024 JAVON BULLARD

And let's not even go to round the round 3 list

SO ALL IN ALL, your GUT, what GRADE DO YOU GIVE THE GUTEBAG, and IS IT TIME TO START HOLDING HIM ACCOUNTABLE ? Or do we just keep dumping the blame to the coaches ??????

[Bretsky]

RANDOM THOUGHTS

I highlighted the draft picks; I think most of us can remember his free agent signings ? This is his 7th years. I think at this point both Ron Wolf and Ted Thompson has won their Super Bowl

He seems to place little to no value on having veterans, as leaders in the locker room and as backups to guide the young players. Imagine what our season would have been without Bruce Wilkinson the year we won the Super Bowl. I get wanting to go youthful; but is his stubborness with this over the top ?

The local ESPN guys have had some fun wars on this very topic lately. When is the time to start holding Gute accountable for not getting to a Super Bowl, if that is actually the goal ?

FUNNY STAT....OF ALL the DL's and Linebackers Gute has drafted they have 99 sacks over the last 7 seasons. Tre Hendrickson has 71 over the last 5 seasons.

I hope this thread leads to some entertaining debate, fighting, and drives GOUCHEBAG to prove me wrong and Win a SUPER BOWL.

It's SUPER BOWL OR BUST GOUCHEBAG; you have pretty much said so recently, although you continue to shift the focus back to the coaches to bring out the youthful talent.

WHEN does the focus shift to drafting the right players ???????

[call_me_ishmael]

I think Gooter is a little overrated so far. It's hard to argue with the results of the team during his tenure but I think his drafts have been pretty mediocre. How did the team get so good during those years? Was it ARod motivated again? The new coach? Weak NFC?

[Bretsky]

I think Gooter is a little overrated so far. It's hard to argue with the results of the team during his tenure but I think his drafts have been pretty mediocre. How did the team get so good during those years? Was it ARod motivated again? The new coach? Weak NFC?

One could easily argue all of the above. For several years the NFC North was horrible, and AROD played at an NFL MVP level for several of those as well.

I know there are a lot of Gouchebag homers in here; Mark Tauscher is one of them as well althogh he's softened a bit on his Gutebag glorification.

But a lot of the local ESNP guys argue he's fairly average. And to be fair, they are slightly bias'd to the negative because he t perceived as a pretty stubborn person who can't admit to anything wrong.

The also LOVED Ron Wolf. During a training camp, when Jason Wilde was there, he tells a story of when Ron Wolf used a 5th round draft pick to draft a speciall teams returner who he thought could be dominant. Wolf was watching practive and the guy (Jameson something I think) kept dropping punt after punt and just could not catch the ball.

Ron Wolf turned to Wilde and several media guys and blurted out "WELL I guess I really F'cked up that draft pick".

Dude was cute shortly after and never played a game as a Packer. The Media just loved Ron Wolf cause he was straight forward, and told it like it is with little filter

[bobblehead]

I gave the solid B and without a long unreadable post I'll explain:

His early draft picks and obsession with RAS is....bad. His work in the later rounds where he drafts character and production is stellar. Coaching in fact DOES matter though. Gary wasn't productive, but is a freak. When we had the best OLB coach in the business (mike white) Gary developed and excelled. When we lost Mike White Gary got hurt and then fell off. Its a big part of the total equation and hiring the right guys is on Gutes and MiLF. Gutes has been solid, but we have lost a lot of good coaches because they are in demand. Bad coaches stay in their current jobs too long as a rule (see Peter principle.)

I would say the biggest mistake was holding on to Rodgers a season or 2 too long. Selling out the future for that one last run with him. That said, how well did we bounce back after moving on!! We are still brutally young. (youngest in NFL on opening day in 24 and 25). Why wouldn't you expect a playoff team that was youngest in the league 2 years running to improve??

As for Ron Wolf, yea, bang up job. He had the biggest war chest in the NFL at a time when there was free agency and no salary cap. He managed the same number of Owl wins as TT. Less championship games and I am only guessing here, but probably not much higher winning %. If God didn't tell Reggie White to sign with the team offering the most money how good does Wolf look? Basically he was gifted the greatest DL of all time without spending a draft pick and he had similar success to TT. Gutes hasn't gotten the OWL yet, but his success of fielding winning teams is pretty good.

Bottom line, you gotta judge the results on the field. Gutes has been really good, no 2 ways about it. This roster is 100% his and its a roster that will be among the best in the NFL this year. The cap is solid and we will re sign most of our own. Thats at worst a solid B.

[Fritz]

It's a B for me. His first round picks have often not worked out very well, and that's his biggest sin, to me.

Of course this grade will change in part depending on how Love plays this year.

[King Friday]

I’ve been very critical on Gute in terms of his inability to find better players at the top of the draft. Granted, he never has a top 10 pick to work with, but he should be hitting quality starters 50%+ when he’s picking 15-25, which has been the general area he’s operated. He’s not met that standard. However, he’s proven better than average in other ways as GM.

This is a big year for him. The team has proven they have enough talent to compete with the top teams, but needs a couple more pieces to become championship caliber. Drafting some kind of project isn’t what we are looking for at this point. A roster full of very good players simply doesn’t get it done. You need a handful of impact guys as well. Cooper may be one of those kind of guys, and now you need to stack someone else on top of that in 2025.

[sharpe1027]

He was involved in hiring MLF. Could have done way worse there.

[sharpe1027]

Jordan Love the draft pick is above expectations. Look at how terrible the hit rate for QBs is even in the top half of the draft. Signing that huge contract is TBD, but I'm not sure what other realistic options he had.

[Teamcheez1]

I think Gute has done a solid B in running the team.
The problem is we need an A to win a Super Bowl.

[bobblehead]

It's a B for me. His first round picks have often not worked out very well, and that's his biggest sin, to me.

Of course this grade will change in part depending on how Love plays this year.

Just for reference here is the 2021 first round:

1 1 Jacksonville Jaguars Trevor Lawrence † QB Clemson ACC
1 2 New York Jets Zach Wilson QB BYU Ind. (FBS)
1 3 San Francisco 49ers Trey Lance QB
1 4 Atlanta Falcons Kyle Pitts † TE
1 5 Cincinnati Bengals Ja'Marr Chase † WR
1 6 Miami Dolphins Jaylen Waddle WR
1 7 Detroit Lions Penei Sewell † OT
1 8 Carolina Panthers Jaycee Horn † CB South Carolina SEC
1 9 Denver Broncos Patrick Surtain II † CB Alabama SEC
1 10 Philadelphia Eagles DeVonta Smith WR Alabama
1 11 Chicago Bears Justin Fields QB Ohio State Big Ten
1 12 Dallas Cowboys Micah Parsons † LB
1 13 Los Angeles Chargers Rashawn Slater † OT Northwestern Big Ten
1 14 New York Jets Alijah Vera-Tucker OG
1 15 New England Patriots Mac Jones † QB
1 16 Arizona Cardinals Zaven Collins LB Tulsa The American
2020 Bronko Nagurski Trophy winner and Chuck Bednarik Award winner
1 17 Las Vegas Raiders Alex Leatherwood OT
1 18 Miami Dolphins Jaelan Phillips DE Miami (FL) ACC
1 19 Washington Football Team Jamin Davis LB Kentucky SEC
1 20 New York Giants Kadarius Toney WR Florid
1 21 Indianapolis Colts Kwity Paye DE Michigan Big Ten
1 22 Tennessee Titans Caleb Farley CB Virginia Tech ACC
1 23 Minnesota Vikings Christian Darrisaw OT
1 24 Pittsburgh Steelers Najee Harris † RB Alabama
1 25 Jacksonville Jaguars Travis Etienne RB Clemson ACC
1 26 Cleveland Browns Greg Newsome II CB Northwestern Big Ten
1 27 Baltimore Ravens Rashod Bateman WR Minnesota Big Ten
1 28 New Orleans Saints Payton Turner DE Houston The American
1 29 Green Bay Packers Eric Stokes CB Georgia SEC
1 30 Buffalo Bills Gregory Rousseau DE Miami (FL) ACC
1 31 Baltimore Ravens Odafe Oweh DE Penn Stat
1 32 Tampa Bay Buccaneers Joe Tryon-Shoyinka DE Washington Pac-12

I cleaned it up some, but consider where the packers pick consistently. It ain't like every GM is picking nothing but all pros in the first and our guy is cutting guys coming out of their first camp. He could be better, but expectations have to be realistic.

[bobblehead]

I think Gute has done a solid B in running the team.
The problem is we need an A to win a Super Bowl.

So only about 3 GMs at any time get an A?? Thats actually fair. I guess thats why I gave him a B. A lot of things I said ahead of time have played out pretty well, so its not like I'm being harsh when I criticize for certain moves. Trading back and getting Sweat instead of Gary would have been stellar. Not trading up for Savage was a no brainer at the time. I hated the Van Ness pick because there were guys available right there you could use with similar upside. (Gonzalez, CB and Jones, OT were the guys I wanted). I wanted Wyatt when we picked Walker, so can't complain since we got him anyway. Peyton Wilson over Hopper was the biggest no brainer I ever saw and we botched that one. I didn't like Bullard or Lloyd last year, time will tell, but I was high on Evan Williams immediately. Again, Gutes makes me hate life on day 1 and 2 of the draft, but he nails day 3.

[Patler]

Gute hit a grand slam in 2022. You can argue about whether or not QW and DW have played to the level of where they were picked, but they and 6 others (Watson, Ryan, Doubs, Tom, Rasheed Walker, Enagbare) are returning starters going into their 4th seasons. Drafting 8 players in one draft who are starters in their third seasons on a winning team is outstanding.

[texaspackerbacker]

Just for reference here is the 2021 first round:

1 1 Jacksonville Jaguars Trevor Lawrence † QB Clemson ACC
1 2 New York Jets Zach Wilson QB BYU Ind. (FBS)
1 3 San Francisco 49ers Trey Lance QB
1 4 Atlanta Falcons Kyle Pitts † TE
1 5 Cincinnati Bengals Ja'Marr Chase † WR
1 6 Miami Dolphins Jaylen Waddle WR
1 7 Detroit Lions Penei Sewell † OT
1 8 Carolina Panthers Jaycee Horn † CB South Carolina SEC
1 9 Denver Broncos Patrick Surtain II † CB Alabama SEC
1 10 Philadelphia Eagles DeVonta Smith WR Alabama
1 11 Chicago Bears Justin Fields QB Ohio State Big Ten
1 12 Dallas Cowboys Micah Parsons † LB
1 13 Los Angeles Chargers Rashawn Slater † OT Northwestern Big Ten
1 14 New York Jets Alijah Vera-Tucker OG
1 15 New England Patriots Mac Jones † QB
1 16 Arizona Cardinals Zaven Collins LB Tulsa The American
2020 Bronko Nagurski Trophy winner and Chuck Bednarik Award winner
1 17 Las Vegas Raiders Alex Leatherwood OT
1 18 Miami Dolphins Jaelan Phillips DE Miami (FL) ACC
1 19 Washington Football Team Jamin Davis LB Kentucky SEC
1 20 New York Giants Kadarius Toney WR Florid
1 21 Indianapolis Colts Kwity Paye DE Michigan Big Ten
1 22 Tennessee Titans Caleb Farley CB Virginia Tech ACC
1 23 Minnesota Vikings Christian Darrisaw OT
1 24 Pittsburgh Steelers Najee Harris † RB Alabama
1 25 Jacksonville Jaguars Travis Etienne RB Clemson ACC
1 26 Cleveland Browns Greg Newsome II CB Northwestern Big Ten
1 27 Baltimore Ravens Rashod Bateman WR Minnesota Big Ten
1 28 New Orleans Saints Payton Turner DE Houston The American
1 29 Green Bay Packers Eric Stokes CB Georgia SEC
1 30 Buffalo Bills Gregory Rousseau DE Miami (FL) ACC
1 31 Baltimore Ravens Odafe Oweh DE Penn Stat
1 32 Tampa Bay Buccaneers Joe Tryon-Shoyinka DE Washington Pac-12

I cleaned it up some, but consider where the packers pick consistently. It ain't like every GM is picking nothing but all pros in the first and our guy is cutting guys coming out of their first camp. He could be better, but expectations have to be realistic.

That's an amazing number of flops and mediocre successes on that list, especially if you get below the top 12 or so. So it's far from only the Packers who aren't drafting first round superstars.

I'd probably grade Gutekunst at about B+ based on the whole picture - much better success in mid and low rounds as well as like somebody said, hiring LaFleur - who probably gets about an A- grade IMO.

[Patler]

Hearing about Gouchebag's recent interviews, he feels the Packers roster as is is contructed to compete for a Super Bowl.

As you know I've pointed out, Gutebag never ever admits a mistake. And everybody makes them

Actually, I think Gute admits to mistakes faster than many GMs. Does he play to the media like Wolf did? No. Does he make self-deprecating remarks to be "one of the guys" with the media? No.

What Gute has done to admit his mistakes is move on from the players by cutting or trading them even before their rookie contracts are up. Even high draft picks and players he used two draft picks for by trading up to draft them. Jace Sternberger, Amari Rodgers, Josh Jackson, J'Mon Moore, Royce Newman, Anders Carlson (not a higher round pick, but a pick used on a kicker is noteworthy}. Gute doesn't make a big deal about it, just moves on from the player. Sometimes in the past it has seemed that a pick in rounds 1-4 had a four-year career in the bag.

He seems to place little to no value on having veterans, as leaders in the locker room and as backups to guide the young players. Imagine what our season would have been without Bruce Wilkinson the year we won the Super Bowl. I get wanting to go youthful; but is his stubborness with this over the top ?

What constitutes a "veteran" leader? He brought in 2 last year in their fifth seasons, one in his 6th, and one in his 10th. This year he has signed two in their fifth seasons and one in his 7th.

In the past he signed guys like Mercedes Lewis, Jared Veldhere, Jimmie Graham, Ricky Wagner, Jarran Reed, Dennis Kelly, Christian Kirksey, Billy Turner, Campbell, Ford, Leavitt, Wilson, Pat O'Donnell who had 5, 6, 7, 10 or more years in the league. Some played a lot as starters or reserves filling in for injured starters. Had the Packers won a SB in those years, we would have talked about those signings just as we do about Wilkerson.