How to screw up an O-lineman

[Patler]

I was surprised to see that Jordan Morgan played the third most snaps on offense of all the linemen.

Walker - 988
Rhyan - 808
Morgan - 748

The breakdown for Morgan was:

LT - 51
LG - 191
RG - 358
RT - 148

I was recently reminded of what Josh Sitton said when he switched from one side to the other, but staying at guard for the Packers, that it was "like trying to wipe your ass with the other hand." That was when making a permanent change, not flip-flopping back and forth during the season. Then throw in moving between tackle and guard while moving from one side to the other, all while having very little NFL playing experience. Is it any wonder that Morgan's play was inconsistent?

[Fritz]

I was surprised to see that Jordan Morgan played the third most snaps on offense of all the linemen.

Walker - 988
Rhyan - 808
Morgan - 748

The breakdown for Morgan was:

LT - 51
LG - 191
RG - 358
RT - 148

I was recently reminded of what Josh Sitton said when he switched from one side to the other, but staying at guard for the Packers, that it was "like trying to wipe your ass with the other hand." Then throw in moving between tackle and guard while moving from one side to the other. Is it any wonder that Morgan's play was inconsistent?

This philosophy of having your five best linemen on the field by having them learn multiple positions (except your left tackle in Rasheed Walker) assumes that because they're your best athletes/linemen, if they're forced to move to a secondary position, they'll still be better than your straight-up backup guy. For example, the thinking is that your more talented left tackle, say Jordan Morgan, would do better backing up your right guard than a guy who is a right guard but did not win the starting position.

Having seen Morgan struggle at the guard spot, I'm not so sure that's true. Would Monk have been equally "meh"? Maybe. I also think it would be extremely difficult to switch positions mid-game =- and if there's an injury during a game, that would of course happen. Me no like. If you draft solid enough backups, I think those guys would do as well as replacements as a starter-talent playing out of position. I'm sure there are exceptions, but not many. Look at Jenkins. Starting left guard moved to center. Pooped the bed. And he was a center in college.

Given what Sitton said, I wonder too if it'd be easier (if you insist on the "five most talented linemen" philosophy) to teach a guy two positions on one side of the line, or one position on either side. That is, would it be easier to learn to be a left tackle and guard on only the left or right side, or would it be easier to learn to be just a tackle, but on both the left and right sides? I have no idea.

It's kinda odd to me that the team is so damn adamant about offensive linemen having to play multiple positions (with the exception of Rasheed Walker), yet they don't push the same flexibility philosophy on their wide receivers or corners. Jayden Reed is a slot guy, period. Nixon was a slot but is now exclusively outside.

[pbmax]

This philosophy of having your five best linemen on the field by having them learn multiple positions (except your left tackle in Rasheed Walker) assumes that because they're your best athletes/linemen, if they're forced to move to a secondary position, they'll still be better than your straight-up backup guy. For example, the thinking is that your more talented left tackle, say Jordan Morgan, would do better backing up your right guard than a guy who is a right guard but did not win the starting position.

Having seen Morgan struggle at the guard spot, I'm not so sure that's true. Would Monk have been equally "meh"? Maybe. I also think it would be extremely difficult to switch positions mid-game =- and if there's an injury during a game, that would of course happen. Me no like. If you draft solid enough backups, I think those guys would do as well as replacements as a starter-talent playing out of position. I'm sure there are exceptions, but not many. Look at Jenkins. Starting left guard moved to center. Pooped the bed. And he was a center in college.

Given what Sitton said, I wonder too if it'd be easier (if you insist on the "five most talented linemen" philosophy) to teach a guy two positions on one side of the line, or one position on either side. That is, would it be easier to learn to be a left tackle and guard on only the left or right side, or would it be easier to learn to be just a tackle, but on both the left and right sides? I have no idea.

It's kinda odd to me that the team is so damn adamant about offensive linemen having to play multiple positions (with the exception of Rasheed Walker), yet they don't push the same flexibility philosophy on their wide receivers or corners. Jayden Reed is a slot guy, period. Nixon was a slot but is now exclusively outside.

Given there are either 7 or 8 game game day actives. Someone is switching sides or positions if someone gets hurt. And there are only so many starting snaps available in camp. So if Jordan Morgan stays at LT all career, he literally would have his experience halved in the offense.

I get that concentrating is what all lineman want, but its not realistic past a certain point.

I am more interested in how it was that Belton received his training at tackle first. That seemed, to me, a mismatch. I cannot say for certain but I'd love it explained. I'm not sure it makes much of a difference this year as he was a rookie and wasn't going to be the first inserted, but I thought it was curious. Its likely because the Tackle position has to be manned capably. But I'd still love to know.

As for other positions, the functioning of the group doesn't impact the health of the QB like the lineman do. And you can run a D with just 2 CBs after injuries. You can't do that on the O line. Tucker Kraft or Devonte Wyatt can't be an OT.

[Patler]

Clearly, some (many) of the OL have to have some position flexibility because of numbers. But expecting an inexperienced young player to play a lot of snaps at four positions is pushing it to an extreme. The fact that Morgan could and did to some level of NFL performance is to his credit, and we should not be down on him for being inconsistent.

[pbmax]

Clearly, some (many) of the OL have to have some position flexibility because of numbers. But expecting an inexperienced young player to play a lot of snaps at four positions is pushing it to an extreme. The fact that Morgan could and did to some level of NFL performance is to his credit, and we should not be down on him for being inconsistent.

Agree. I also think he was out there for that many positions because they trusted him more than the others

[bobblehead]

I go back to skill set. Some guys are tweeners. Some guys like space. Some guys have a low base and are grunts. Morgan was always a tackle. He just happens to be built like a guard. I do think Tom would be the best guard in the league. He happens to be a really good tackle.

[texaspackerbacker]

I was surprised to see that Jordan Morgan played the third most snaps on offense of all the linemen.

Walker - 988
Rhyan - 808
Morgan - 748

The breakdown for Morgan was:

LT - 51
LG - 191
RG - 358
RT - 148

I was recently reminded of what Josh Sitton said when he switched from one side to the other, but staying at guard for the Packers, that it was "like trying to wipe your ass with the other hand." That was when making a permanent change, not flip-flopping back and forth during the season. Then throw in moving between tackle and guard while moving from one side to the other, all while having very little NFL playing experience. Is it any wonder that Morgan's play was inconsistent?

I, for one, am an ambidextrous ass-wiper. I disagree with the premise that it is bad to cross train O Linemen and use them at multiple positions. I agree, though, that Tom would be an outstanding Guard. Even though I'm for flexibility, I tend to regard Guard play as more important than Tackle play, both run game and pass game. Thus, I didn't like switching him to Tackle.

[Fritz]

I, for one, am an ambidextrous ass-wiper. I disagree with the premise that it is bad to cross train O Linemen and use them at multiple positions. I agree, though, that Tom would be an outstanding Guard. Even though I'm for flexibility, I tend to regard Guard play as more important than Tackle play, both run game and pass game. Thus, I didn't like switching him to Tackle.

Tex, you say things sometimes that seem crazy, but none crazier than this.

I get that guards are the inside, direct-line-to-the-QB guys, but I always thought good tackles were harder to find.

You also say things from time to time that are just hilarious. Like your first line.

[texaspackerbacker]

No argument that good Tackles are harder to find than Guards. However, that's completely consistent with what I said - that Guard play is more important. As you said, inside pass rush screws up or pass plays a lot more than from the outside where a mobile QB can more easily avoid it. And I'd argue that a good downhill inside running attack gets the job done better as well as it is more dependent on good blocking than outside runs - which more often have success or failure because of the RB rather than blocking.

[bobblehead]

Tex, you say things sometimes that seem crazy, but none crazier than this.

I get that guards are the inside, direct-line-to-the-QB guys, but I always thought good tackles were harder to find.

You also say things from time to time that are just hilarious. Like your first line.

You MUST engage a guard to get to the QB. You can evade/outmaneuver a tackle. This is why its a different skill set. Guards have to be lower and gain immediate leverage against massive immobile men. Tackles have to be agile and have a toolbox to counter talented multi tool pass rushers. Worst case for a guard is he gets blown up....and the guy still has to go over him. You simply never see a 350lb NT with a free run at the QB because the guard whiffed (well, almost never).

[pbmax]

You MUST engage a guard to get to the QB. You can evade/outmaneuver a tackle. This is why its a different skill set. Guards have to be lower and gain immediate leverage against massive immobile men. Tackles have to be agile and have a toolbox to counter talented multi tool pass rushers. Worst case for a guard is he gets blown up....and the guy still has to go over him. You simply never see a 350lb NT with a free run at the QB because the guard whiffed (well, almost never).

Usually yes. But as the Super Bowl showed multiple times on both sides, some DTs can just slip or jump past Guards who get out too far over their skis. The points stands, but its not a guaranteed interaction.

Also, a lot of pass block leakage at Guard and Center seemed this year to be misunderstandings between the protection call and the back on overload or blitz pressure for the Packers. Its not all on the Guards.

[Bretsky]

Not to be captain obvious here, but GUTEBAG is drafting these guys with higher RAS scores fully believing they can play multiple positions on the OL. And when asked about it at the last presser he defended the concept and believes in it. Had he known Jordan Morgan was kinda going to suck at all of the positions, but maybe LT, he would have never drafted him in the first place.

Gutebag's shit decisions have tanked our OL

We had an all pro left guard. We MASSIVELY overpaid a OG to come to Green Bay, moved our OG to center, and he wasn't that good there. And to boot, the OG who has a 24,000,000 cap hit (3rd on our roster), was injured to often and when he wasn't he was very average. Not saying he can't be good, but I don't want good for that price

I want Myers at Center, Elgin Jenkins at OT, and Zach Tom. That is a nice foundation to start with. Maybe, you even keep Walker for more stability.

As it stands, we're going to have to draft multiple OL to replenish the talent at the position that our GM totally gutted.

[call_me_ishmael]

Big Elg was a good player but he wasn't an all-pro guy and was a pro bowler in 2020 and 2022. You're overstating his goodness a bit. He's not Josh Sitton, but maybe he is TJ Lang.

[texaspackerbacker]

Bretsky, good to read somebody else say something not negative about Josh Meyers. And you're right about hugely overpaying for Banks. IMO, we were at our best when both Jenkins and Tom were playing Guard.

I say again, pass rush up the middle does the most harm. Even a whiff by an OT can be compensated for by a mobile QB - Rodgers and Love both had to do that a LOT. When they're on the QB almost instantly up the middle, though, there's not much hope of getting away from it. Similarly Guards are a bigger determinant of success in the run game than Tackles are. Opening a hole is make or break whereas a Tackle missing a block often can be compensated for by the RB making a move, jump stop, etc.

Also, I tend to think of all the position groups, coaching is a bigger factor in the O Line than any of the others - and the Packers have been pretty poor there for a few years.

[Bretsky]

Big Elg was a good player but he wasn't an all-pro guy and was a pro bowler in 2020 and 2022. You're overstating his goodness a bit. He's not Josh Sitton, but maybe he is TJ Lang.

Jenkins was really really good at OG; Gutebag was just smarter than all of us thinking he needed Aaron Banks as an upgrade ((